new salt chlorinator system

[waterbear]

Using just 20 mule team borax and forgetting the polyquat is fine. I go on vacation every summer 9n July or August for about 2 weeks (and I live in Florida). I just shock the pool with bleach to about 20 ppm before I go (Borate 50 ppm, CYA 80 ppm) and turn everything off. When I come back I have never had a green pool. It might be slightly cloudy but no visible green. I turn on everythng, shock it again with bleach to 20 ppm, and by the next day am good to go. This has been my routine ever since I started using borate over 6 years ago.

You can probably cut way back on the HEDP if not stopping it all together. They say to add the maintenance dose weekly but often it is only necessary montly to prevent stain reoccurance. I would cut back to every two weeks and see of the setains stay away. IF they do after a few months then cut back to monthly.

I would have to say that it's the salt and not the SWCG. I have seen many pools that have never had staining issues with a SWCG. They have used water softener salt pellets or solar salt. Both are actually fine for use in a salt pool. The pellets are very slow to dissovle and can take over a day. The solar salt usually is gone in a few hours. Brushing helps any salt dissolve faster. I have seen several occurances of where pool salt was dumped in and not brushed and it left a stain where it sat. I have never seen that with solar salt.

Citric acid is not the best additive for pool water even though it can be used like ascorbic acid to remove stains. It has some undesirable interactions. I had some info on this but 'get my hands on it at the moment.

The only thing I would ADD to your routine is more brushing!

The phosphate remover is a totally unneeded expense (and will get much more expensive soon if it hasn't already as China continues to raise the price on Lanthanum salts.) Don't waste any more money on it. You would be better served making sure the borate is 50 ppm before closing.

[PoolDoc]

I would like to check my water to see if I still have metals and still need the sequestrant (I've been using The Purple Stuff for several years now), but according to Ben, it's seems sequestrants may interfere with the test results. So I guess the only way to find out if I still have metals (likely if the source is the salt as I suspect) is to stop using the sequestrant and see if staining returns. However, I really don't want to do that as getting rid of the stains is a royal pain and expense.

You can do a bucket test.

1. Take a CLEAN white 5 gallon plastic bucket with a lid
2. Add 4 gallons of pool water.
3. Add 1/4 cup of plain 6% Clorox bleach (~200 ppm chlorine)
4. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
5. Uncover, and check for sediment.
6. Add 1/8 cup washing soda (sodium carbonate)
7. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
8. Inspect for sediment and stains.

The high chlorine should break down the phosphonates, and may drop out any metals. If not, the high pH (washing soda) should finish the job. Perfectly still water should allow it to settle. It take very little iron (less than 0.5 ppm) to make visible sediment. The clean white plastic should make any stains or sediment very visible. Use Clorox, since cheap bleach may have some iron or other metals. I know Clorox filters to prevent this; I think the others do, but using Clorox lets you be fairly sure.

Also, I'm going to ask Sean, of AutoPilot to take a look at this thread.

Meanwhile, can you add full pool info to your signature pump / filter / SWCG make and model? Link in MY signature to the settings menu.

[JimK]

Using just 20 mule team borax and forgetting the polyquat is fine. I go on vacation every summer 9n July or August for about 2 weeks (and I live in Florida). I just shock the pool with bleach to about 20 ppm before I go (Borate 50 ppm, CYA 80 ppm) and turn everything off. When I come back I have never had a green pool. It might be slightly cloudy but no visible green. I turn on everythng, shock it again with bleach to 20 ppm, and by the next day am good to go. This has been my routine ever since I started using borate over 6 years ago.

Sounds like borax is very effective. I'll have to try it without the polyquat and see what happens. I may put that experiment off until next season since I already have a full seasons worth of polyquat on hand. Either that or find someone to sell it to!

You can probably cut way back on the HEDP if not stopping it all together. They say to add the maintenance dose weekly but often it is only necessary montly to prevent stain reoccurance. I would cut back to every two weeks and see of the setains stay away. IF they do after a few months then cut back to monthly.

Right now I'm adding 12 oz per week. If I cut back to every 2 weeks, do I still only add 12 oz, or do I add 24 oz? What about monthly?

I would have to say that it's the salt and not the SWCG. I have seen many pools that have never had staining issues with a SWCG. They have used water softener salt pellets or solar salt. Both are actually fine for use in a salt pool. The pellets are very slow to dissovle and can take over a day. The solar salt usually is gone in a few hours. Brushing helps any salt dissolve faster. I have seen several occurances of where pool salt was dumped in and not brushed and it left a stain where it sat. I have never seen that with solar salt.

I'm also pretty convinced that the iron is getting in the pool via the salt. BTW, I NEVER just dump salt into the pool or let salt sit on the bottom. I put the salt in a bucket, add water to pre-disolve most of it then add it throughout the pool. Perhaps I should switch to solar salt, it just takes so long to get it to disolve and I don't want it sitting on my liner. What do you think of this idea; put the solar salt in a large bucket, lower the bucket into the pool (pump running of course) and let it sit until the salt disolves/dispurses. This way I wouldn't have to keep brushing it around for what feels like forever. Would this work?

Citric acid is not the best additive for pool water even though it can be used like ascorbic acid to remove stains. It has some undesirable interactions. I had some info on this but 'get my hands on it at the moment.

Then it seems whatever "natural stain fighter" has been added to the salt I bought this season I shouldn't use it. I'll see if I can return it.

The only thing I would ADD to your routine is more brushing!

LOL.......yes, yes, I promise I'll do better!

The phosphate remover is a totally unneeded expense (and will get much more expensive soon if it hasn't already as China continues to raise the price on Lanthanum salts.) Don't waste any more money on it. You would be better served making sure the borate is 50 ppm before closing.

Thanks for the tip.

[JimK]

You can do a bucket test.

1. Take a CLEAN white 5 gallon plastic bucket with a lid
2. Add 4 gallons of pool water.
3. Add 1/4 cup of plain 6% Clorox bleach (~200 ppm chlorine)
4. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
5. Uncover, and check for sediment.
6. Add 1/8 cup washing soda (sodium carbonate)
7. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
8. Inspect for sediment and stains.

The high chlorine should break down the phosphonates, and may drop out any metals. If not, the high pH (washing soda) should finish the job. Perfectly still water should allow it to settle. It take very little iron (less than 0.5 ppm) to make visible sediment. The clean white plastic should make any stains or sediment very visible. Use Clorox, since cheap bleach may have some iron or other metals. I know Clorox filters to prevent this; I think the others do, but using Clorox lets you be fairly sure.

Also, I'm going to ask Sean, of AutoPilot to take a look at this thread.

Meanwhile, can you add full pool info to your signature pump / filter / SWCG make and model? Link in MY signature to the settings menu.

Thanks, I'll give that a try. A question though, in step #6, is "washing soda (sodium carbonate)" the same as the bicarb (sodium bicarbonate?) that I use to raise TA?

I did put some of my pool info in my signature (can you see it?) the other day. I'll put the rest of the info in there as well. Not sure of the exact model of SWCG I have, but it's an Aquarite unit (Goldline) that uses the T Cell 15.

[chem geek]

A question though, in step #6, is "washing soda (sodium carbonate)" the same as the bicarb (sodium bicarbonate?) that I use to raise TA?

No, those are related, but different. Washing soda (sodium carbonate) is what is in most "pH Up" products and raises both pH and TA. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) mostly raises TA with little change in pH (it can rise some depending on your starting pH). You use the former to raise both pH and TA at the same time and the latter to raise mostly TA only.

As for the CuLator replacement frequency, it depends on whether it fills up removing metals. You wouldn't replace it every couple of weeks unless you had a lot of metals in the water, the bag absorbed them (usually, but not always, coloring the bag), and you measured a drop in metal concentration but was still not low enough. Whoever described replacing it every couple of weeks was probably trying to make money from selling it, but even the manufacturer doesn't say to do it that frequently.

In fact, have you had your water tested for metal ion concentration? Such tests usually measure total concentration including metals bound to sequestrants when the dye in the test binds more strongly to the metal than the sequenstrant you are using. Ben's bucket test would be a more definitive test since it eliminates the sequestrant by reacting with it to release the metal.

By the way, having the FC that is 5% of the CYA level didn't come from me exactly. There was a user at TFP making careful measurements that found precisely for his pool where chlorine demand would start to increase from algae growth and then we looked at other user's SWCG pools at varying phosphate levels (when they knew them) and at some point proposed setting the lower standard since it seemed that the SWCG pools were able to prevent algae growth at the lower FC/CYA level. My contribution was for the FC/CYA ratio being consistent across CYA levels and initially I proposed a 4.5% setting but that level was based on actual pool reports, not on theory. 5% is the rounded version of that which ended up in the recommendation tables as 3 ppm FC for 60 ppm CYA to 4 ppm FC for 80 ppm CYA. I also looked at the chemistry of the SWCG cell to figure out that there would indeed by super-chlorination of a portion of the water in the cell that was different than occurs from manual dosing (the difference being the pH, at least initially).

[PoolDoc]

You wouldn't replace it every couple of weeks unless you had a lot of metals in the water, the bag absorbed them (usually, but not always, coloring the bag), and you measured a drop in metal concentration but was still not low enough. Whoever described replacing it every couple of weeks was probably trying to make money from selling it, but even the manufacturer doesn't say to do that.

The mfg is saying every 30 days (4 weeks):

Discard used PowerPak after 30 days. (Note: PowerPak contents MAY change color.)

from
http://www.culator.com/eliminating-metals

[JimK]

No, those are related, but different. Washing soda (sodium carbonate) is what is in most "pH Up" products and raises both pH and TA. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) mostly raises TA with little change in pH (it can rise some depending on your starting pH). You use the former to raise both pH and TA at the same time and the latter to raise mostly TA only.

As for the CuLator replacement frequency, it depends on whether it fills up removing metals. You wouldn't replace it every couple of weeks unless you had a lot of metals in the water, the bag absorbed them (usually, but not always, coloring the bag), and you measured a drop in metal concentration but was still not low enough. Whoever described replacing it every couple of weeks was probably trying to make money from selling it, but even the manufacturer doesn't say to do it that frequently.

Thanks for the clarification.

In fact, have you had your water tested for metal ion concentration? Such tests usually measure total concentration including metals bound to sequestrants when the dye in the test binds more strongly to the metal than the sequenstrant you are using. Ben's bucket test would be a more definitive test since it eliminates the sequestrant by reacting with it to release the metal.

I have not had my water tested. I thought I understood that the sequestrant I'm using interferes with such tests. Is this incorrect? Is there a specific test kit that will give me accurate results even with the sequestrant? I plan on trying Ben's bucket test, but it would be nice to know the level of metals I'm dealing with.

By the way, having the FC that is 5% of the CYA level didn't come from me exactly. There was a user at TFP making careful measurements that found precisely for his pool where chlorine demand would start to increase from algae growth and then we looked at other user's SWCG pools at varying phosphate levels (when they knew them) and at some point proposed setting the lower standard since it seemed that the SWCG pools were able to prevent algae growth at the lower FC/CYA level. My contribution was for the FC/CYA ratio being consistent across CYA levels and initially I proposed a 4.5% setting but that level was based on actual pool reports, not on theory. 5% is the rounded version of that which ended up in the recommendation tables as 3 ppm FC for 60 ppm CYA to 4 ppm FC for 80 ppm CYA. I also looked at the chemistry of the SWCG cell to figure out that there would indeed by super-chlorination of a portion of the water in the cell that was different than occurs from manual dosing (the difference being the pH, at least initially).

Thanks for the explanation. That gives me confidence that I've been using appropriate FC levels.