new salt chlorinator system

[PoolDoc]

Some of the reviews on Amazon indicates the manufacturer recommends replacing the product every couple weeks. That would make it twice as expensive or more, depending on the particular CuLater used, that what I'm using now..

Yeah, manufacturers do that sort of thing.

Remember, I told you that my impression of the Periodic guy is that (a) he's a real chemist and (b) he REALLY wants to make a financial killing.

However, if the CuLater does not get fouled with oils and such, based on the chemical mechanism described, it should work indefinitely. Obviously, that wouldn't fit well with the Periodic guys plans to get rich, so it's not real likely he's going to tell you that.

What's happened with these sorts of products in the past is that somebody discovered a perfectly valid niche product like Culator, but then discovers that a pool niche product will NEVER make him rich, so he tries to force EVERYONE into the niche. I suspect that's happening here.

Can I test for iron, copper, etc. myself, or should a have a pool store test it for me? Does the use of the Purple Stuff prevent getting accurate results?

+ We think HEPD interferes with most metal tests, but we're not sure. Taylor has not been really helpful on this.
+ Pool stores are almost certainly worse than the testing YOU can do.

[JimK]

Yeah, manufacturers do that sort of thing.

Remember, I told you that my impression of the Periodic guy is that (a) he's a real chemist and (b) he REALLY wants to make a financial killing.

However, if the CuLater does not get fouled with oils and such, based on the chemical mechanism described, it should work indefinitely. Obviously, that wouldn't fit well with the Periodic guys plans to get rich, so it's not real likely he's going to tell you that.

What's happened with these sorts of products in the past is that somebody discovered a perfectly valid niche product like Culator, but then discovers that a pool niche product will NEVER make him rich, so he tries to force EVERYONE into the niche. I suspect that's happening here.

Not sure if I want to try an unproven product, but if I decide to try it, which one should I try that would give me the best chance of good results for the buck, 1ppm, 1.5ppm, or 4ppm? Would it make sense that the 4ppm one would last much longer than the 1ppm or 1.5ppm? BTW, according to their website, they recommend replacing it every month (perhaps the every two weeks recommendation in the Amazon reviews was for stain removal? Currently I have no stains). If what you said about lasting indefinitely (seems like at some point it would get saturated?) is correct, I'm wondering if I can get by with just using one per season. That would save me money over using the Purple Stuff.

+ We think HEPD interferes with most metal tests, but we're not sure. Taylor has not been really helpful on this.
+ Pool stores are almost certainly worse than the testing YOU can do.

So it sounds like I may not be able to get accurate results regardless if I test myself (what kit would I need to buy?) or if I have a pool store do it. Might I at least be able to tell if I have any metals or not even if the actual level isn't clear?

Also, are you able to comment on these items I mentioned in my previous post?

1. Is it true my SWCG is the cause of the problem, as I was told, by separating out the trace amounts of iron present in the salt? BTW, I have two coworkers who also use a SWCG (one has a vinyl pool like mine, and the other a fiberglass pool), and they both have the same issue, making me think the SWGC process may actually be the issue. Your thoughts?

2. Is the Purple Stuff actually allowing the filter to capture the metals as quoted here on their website "...The stain removers will lift the stain off the surface, but its The Blue, Pink, Purple, or Magenta Stuff that will remove the metals from the pool and into the filter..." so when I backwash I'm getting rid of the collected metal?

3. So if the salt is the source of metals and the chlorine generation process is separating it out so it can attach to the pool surfaces, are you saying the Purple Stuff at some point will stop working? Or am I likely removing the metals at a rate that will allow the Purple Stuff to keep working as long as I keep up with the maintenance doses?

Thanks again!

[JimK]

Yeah, manufacturers do that sort of thing.

Remember, I told you that my impression of the Periodic guy is that (a) he's a real chemist and (b) he REALLY wants to make a financial killing.

However, if the CuLater does not get fouled with oils and such, based on the chemical mechanism described, it should work indefinitely. Obviously, that wouldn't fit well with the Periodic guys plans to get rich, so it's not real likely he's going to tell you that.

What's happened with these sorts of products in the past is that somebody discovered a perfectly valid niche product like Culator, but then discovers that a pool niche product will NEVER make him rich, so he tries to force EVERYONE into the niche. I suspect that's happening here.




+ We think HEPD interferes with most metal tests, but we're not sure. Taylor has not been really helpful on this.
+ Pool stores are almost certainly worse than the testing YOU can do.

I stumbled across this thread discussing whether or not CuLator really works.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...e-quot-Product

Later in the thread the discussion turns to the idea that keeping calcium levels up may prevent staining. I believe the forum members discussing this have fiberglass pools, so I'm not sure if this also applies to vinyl pools.

Your thoughts on this are appreciated.

[waterbear]

A few observations:
a 4.75 lb box of borax is $2.99 at walmart, target, and the local grocery store.
SWCGs do not cause staining. However, if you do not watch your pH and allow it to spike that can cause staining (and is usually what DOES precipitate stains.) If you know of two other people near you that have similar problems it is either the salt they are using (not very pure) or it's your water. Even city water can have iron in it.

While solar salt might take a bit longer to dissolve compared to a fine grained pool salt it tends to be very pure and rarely causes staining problems. I have seen 'pool salt' sit on a a pool floor and leave a stain behind. I have never seen solar salt do that. The fact that a pool salt has to include a stain fighter should tell you something. My suspicion that the 'natural stain fighter' is citric acid since that is was is often included in water softener pellets to 'clean' the units. Your expensive pool salt might be no more that ground up water softener pellets.

HEDP does not allow a filter to filter out the metals but this claim is often made. It chemically 'deactivates' the metal ions so they become non reactive for a while. The metal stays in the water until you either replace the water or it drops out of solution as a stain. If the stain is on a filter medium it is possible to change the medium and remove the metal.
The phosphates created by the breakdown of metal sequestrant are exactly the same ones that are 'algae food' but high phosphate levels do not mean you will have algae and are often NOT the limiting factor. Algae also need nitrate. However, there is no easy way to remove nitrate from pool water other than replacement of the water so a profit cannot be made by selling a product as it can with so called phosphate removers.

[JimK]

A few observations:
a 4.75 lb box of borax is $2.99 at walmart, target, and the local grocery store.

That's much lower than the what I found online. I'll have to check out the local stores next time I need some.

SWCGs do not cause staining. However, if you do not watch your pH and allow it to spike that can cause staining (and is usually what DOES precipitate stains.) If you know of two other people near you that have similar problems it is either the salt they are using (not very pure) or it's your water. Even city water can have iron in it.

I do keep a close watch on PH (test at least every other day if not everyday) and I don't let it get above 7.8. Could there be short spikes in between? Seems like if short undetected spikes are occuring, that the staining would suddenly appear, but it doesn't. It happens gradually over time. (Note; as I mentioned earlier, I've not had any staining since adding The Purple Stuff to my maintenance routine several seasons ago.)

I know 6 people in my area that have pools including myself (5 vinyl, 1 fiberglass). Out of the 6, 3 of us use the same SWCG system (we had our pools installed within a couple years of each other) and the other 3 use traditional chlorination methods. Those of us who use a SWCG have had metal staining issues and the others have not (we are all on the same city water supply). This in combination with the fact that staining doesn't occur when the system isn't running (ie - during the winter) leads me to believe there must be something to what I was told, that the SWCG separates out the impurities in the salt (which is what I suspect is the source of iron). It's also interesting that our iron staining issue followed the same pattern; 1st season no staining, 2nd season occasional staining, 3rd season staining more frequent, and so on. Perhaps I am missing or misunderstanding something?

While solar salt might take a bit longer to dissolve compared to a fine grained pool salt it tends to be very pure and rarely causes staining problems. I have seen 'pool salt' sit on a a pool floor and leave a stain behind. I have never seen solar salt do that. The fact that a pool salt has to include a stain fighter should tell you something. My suspicion that the 'natural stain fighter' is citric acid since that is was is often included in water softener pellets to 'clean' the units. Your expensive pool salt might be no more that ground up water softener pellets.

I have noticed that the label on the salt bags say they're 99.9% pure. Not sure if solar salt is more pure, or perhaps the pool salt has additives that aren't listed on the label? If the salt I currently have is using citric acid (ascorbic acid) then I'm fine with that. However, Ben mentioned it may contain "chitin (shrimp shell)" or "a mined ortho-phosphate" and seemed to suggest that I should avoid that. Perhaps I'll contact the manufacturer to see if they will tell me what they are using before I lug all that salt back to the store.

HEDP does not allow a filter to filter out the metals but this claim is often made. It chemically 'deactivates' the metal ions so they become non reactive for a while. The metal stays in the water until you either replace the water or it drops out of solution as a stain. If the stain is on a filter medium it is possible to change the medium and remove the metal.
The phosphates created by the breakdown of metal sequestrant are exactly the same ones that are 'algae food' but high phosphate levels do not mean you will have algae and are often NOT the limiting factor. Algae also need nitrate. However, there is no easy way to remove nitrate from pool water other than replacement of the water so a profit cannot be made by selling a product as it can with so called phosphate removers.

That's what I remember reading somewhere before. In season 2 (2005) when I was having problems with the liner getting slick frequently despite FC being around 7, my pool store tested for phosphates and found they were high. He said with high phosphates algae will grow despite good FC levels. Ever since then I use a phosphate remover in my closing routine that comes with the closing kit for mesh cover users. I use a solid cover now (MUCH easier spring cleaning!), but still get the mesh cover kit and apply the phosphate remover at closing as a precaution.

I would like to check my water to see if I still have metals and still need the sequestrant (I've been using The Purple Stuff for several years now), but according to Ben, it's seems sequestrants may interfere with the test results. So I guess the only way to find out if I still have metals (likely if the source is the salt as I suspect) is to stop using the sequestrant and see if staining returns. However, I really don't want to do that as getting rid of the stains is a royal pain and expense.

All this discussion has been very interesting and educational, although sometimes confusing to me. Lately I've been thinking about my current routine and how it might be made cheaper and easier, if possible. It has taken me some years to come up with my current routing which is working very well for my pool (no more staining or algae issues; pool always looks great), so I may come across as a little reluctant to change, and perhaps I am. Sorting though a mountain of information, and misinformation (!), has been challenging.

In the end it seems I'm down to two potential areas that might help me reduce costs and associated questions I need to answer;

1. Stain control. Can I safely stop using the Purple Stuff, or will I always need some sort of stain control (my suspicion is I will)? If I need stain control, is their a better/less expensive way? Would using different brand of salt help?
2. Algae control. Can I stop using polyquat and just rely on borates and chlorine? Looks like switching from "Optimizer" to 20 Mule Team Borax would net some savings.

It may turn out that my current routine is best for my pool and I should just stick with it.

[waterbear]

Using just 20 mule team borax and forgetting the polyquat is fine. I go on vacation every summer 9n July or August for about 2 weeks (and I live in Florida). I just shock the pool with bleach to about 20 ppm before I go (Borate 50 ppm, CYA 80 ppm) and turn everything off. When I come back I have never had a green pool. It might be slightly cloudy but no visible green. I turn on everythng, shock it again with bleach to 20 ppm, and by the next day am good to go. This has been my routine ever since I started using borate over 6 years ago.

You can probably cut way back on the HEDP if not stopping it all together. They say to add the maintenance dose weekly but often it is only necessary montly to prevent stain reoccurance. I would cut back to every two weeks and see of the setains stay away. IF they do after a few months then cut back to monthly.

I would have to say that it's the salt and not the SWCG. I have seen many pools that have never had staining issues with a SWCG. They have used water softener salt pellets or solar salt. Both are actually fine for use in a salt pool. The pellets are very slow to dissovle and can take over a day. The solar salt usually is gone in a few hours. Brushing helps any salt dissolve faster. I have seen several occurances of where pool salt was dumped in and not brushed and it left a stain where it sat. I have never seen that with solar salt.

Citric acid is not the best additive for pool water even though it can be used like ascorbic acid to remove stains. It has some undesirable interactions. I had some info on this but 'get my hands on it at the moment.

The only thing I would ADD to your routine is more brushing!

The phosphate remover is a totally unneeded expense (and will get much more expensive soon if it hasn't already as China continues to raise the price on Lanthanum salts.) Don't waste any more money on it. You would be better served making sure the borate is 50 ppm before closing.

[JimK]

Using just 20 mule team borax and forgetting the polyquat is fine. I go on vacation every summer 9n July or August for about 2 weeks (and I live in Florida). I just shock the pool with bleach to about 20 ppm before I go (Borate 50 ppm, CYA 80 ppm) and turn everything off. When I come back I have never had a green pool. It might be slightly cloudy but no visible green. I turn on everythng, shock it again with bleach to 20 ppm, and by the next day am good to go. This has been my routine ever since I started using borate over 6 years ago.

Sounds like borax is very effective. I'll have to try it without the polyquat and see what happens. I may put that experiment off until next season since I already have a full seasons worth of polyquat on hand. Either that or find someone to sell it to!

You can probably cut way back on the HEDP if not stopping it all together. They say to add the maintenance dose weekly but often it is only necessary montly to prevent stain reoccurance. I would cut back to every two weeks and see of the setains stay away. IF they do after a few months then cut back to monthly.

Right now I'm adding 12 oz per week. If I cut back to every 2 weeks, do I still only add 12 oz, or do I add 24 oz? What about monthly?

I would have to say that it's the salt and not the SWCG. I have seen many pools that have never had staining issues with a SWCG. They have used water softener salt pellets or solar salt. Both are actually fine for use in a salt pool. The pellets are very slow to dissovle and can take over a day. The solar salt usually is gone in a few hours. Brushing helps any salt dissolve faster. I have seen several occurances of where pool salt was dumped in and not brushed and it left a stain where it sat. I have never seen that with solar salt.

I'm also pretty convinced that the iron is getting in the pool via the salt. BTW, I NEVER just dump salt into the pool or let salt sit on the bottom. I put the salt in a bucket, add water to pre-disolve most of it then add it throughout the pool. Perhaps I should switch to solar salt, it just takes so long to get it to disolve and I don't want it sitting on my liner. What do you think of this idea; put the solar salt in a large bucket, lower the bucket into the pool (pump running of course) and let it sit until the salt disolves/dispurses. This way I wouldn't have to keep brushing it around for what feels like forever. Would this work?

Citric acid is not the best additive for pool water even though it can be used like ascorbic acid to remove stains. It has some undesirable interactions. I had some info on this but 'get my hands on it at the moment.

Then it seems whatever "natural stain fighter" has been added to the salt I bought this season I shouldn't use it. I'll see if I can return it.

The only thing I would ADD to your routine is more brushing!

LOL.......yes, yes, I promise I'll do better!

The phosphate remover is a totally unneeded expense (and will get much more expensive soon if it hasn't already as China continues to raise the price on Lanthanum salts.) Don't waste any more money on it. You would be better served making sure the borate is 50 ppm before closing.

Thanks for the tip.

[PoolDoc]

I would like to check my water to see if I still have metals and still need the sequestrant (I've been using The Purple Stuff for several years now), but according to Ben, it's seems sequestrants may interfere with the test results. So I guess the only way to find out if I still have metals (likely if the source is the salt as I suspect) is to stop using the sequestrant and see if staining returns. However, I really don't want to do that as getting rid of the stains is a royal pain and expense.

You can do a bucket test.

1. Take a CLEAN white 5 gallon plastic bucket with a lid
2. Add 4 gallons of pool water.
3. Add 1/4 cup of plain 6% Clorox bleach (~200 ppm chlorine)
4. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
5. Uncover, and check for sediment.
6. Add 1/8 cup washing soda (sodium carbonate)
7. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
8. Inspect for sediment and stains.

The high chlorine should break down the phosphonates, and may drop out any metals. If not, the high pH (washing soda) should finish the job. Perfectly still water should allow it to settle. It take very little iron (less than 0.5 ppm) to make visible sediment. The clean white plastic should make any stains or sediment very visible. Use Clorox, since cheap bleach may have some iron or other metals. I know Clorox filters to prevent this; I think the others do, but using Clorox lets you be fairly sure.

Also, I'm going to ask Sean, of AutoPilot to take a look at this thread.

Meanwhile, can you add full pool info to your signature pump / filter / SWCG make and model? Link in MY signature to the settings menu.

[JimK]

You can do a bucket test.

1. Take a CLEAN white 5 gallon plastic bucket with a lid
2. Add 4 gallons of pool water.
3. Add 1/4 cup of plain 6% Clorox bleach (~200 ppm chlorine)
4. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
5. Uncover, and check for sediment.
6. Add 1/8 cup washing soda (sodium carbonate)
7. Mix, cover and wait 24 hours.
8. Inspect for sediment and stains.

The high chlorine should break down the phosphonates, and may drop out any metals. If not, the high pH (washing soda) should finish the job. Perfectly still water should allow it to settle. It take very little iron (less than 0.5 ppm) to make visible sediment. The clean white plastic should make any stains or sediment very visible. Use Clorox, since cheap bleach may have some iron or other metals. I know Clorox filters to prevent this; I think the others do, but using Clorox lets you be fairly sure.

Also, I'm going to ask Sean, of AutoPilot to take a look at this thread.

Meanwhile, can you add full pool info to your signature pump / filter / SWCG make and model? Link in MY signature to the settings menu.

Thanks, I'll give that a try. A question though, in step #6, is "washing soda (sodium carbonate)" the same as the bicarb (sodium bicarbonate?) that I use to raise TA?

I did put some of my pool info in my signature (can you see it?) the other day. I'll put the rest of the info in there as well. Not sure of the exact model of SWCG I have, but it's an Aquarite unit (Goldline) that uses the T Cell 15.

[chem geek]

A question though, in step #6, is "washing soda (sodium carbonate)" the same as the bicarb (sodium bicarbonate?) that I use to raise TA?

No, those are related, but different. Washing soda (sodium carbonate) is what is in most "pH Up" products and raises both pH and TA. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) mostly raises TA with little change in pH (it can rise some depending on your starting pH). You use the former to raise both pH and TA at the same time and the latter to raise mostly TA only.

As for the CuLator replacement frequency, it depends on whether it fills up removing metals. You wouldn't replace it every couple of weeks unless you had a lot of metals in the water, the bag absorbed them (usually, but not always, coloring the bag), and you measured a drop in metal concentration but was still not low enough. Whoever described replacing it every couple of weeks was probably trying to make money from selling it, but even the manufacturer doesn't say to do it that frequently.

In fact, have you had your water tested for metal ion concentration? Such tests usually measure total concentration including metals bound to sequestrants when the dye in the test binds more strongly to the metal than the sequenstrant you are using. Ben's bucket test would be a more definitive test since it eliminates the sequestrant by reacting with it to release the metal.

By the way, having the FC that is 5% of the CYA level didn't come from me exactly. There was a user at TFP making careful measurements that found precisely for his pool where chlorine demand would start to increase from algae growth and then we looked at other user's SWCG pools at varying phosphate levels (when they knew them) and at some point proposed setting the lower standard since it seemed that the SWCG pools were able to prevent algae growth at the lower FC/CYA level. My contribution was for the FC/CYA ratio being consistent across CYA levels and initially I proposed a 4.5% setting but that level was based on actual pool reports, not on theory. 5% is the rounded version of that which ended up in the recommendation tables as 3 ppm FC for 60 ppm CYA to 4 ppm FC for 80 ppm CYA. I also looked at the chemistry of the SWCG cell to figure out that there would indeed by super-chlorination of a portion of the water in the cell that was different than occurs from manual dosing (the difference being the pH, at least initially).