new salt chlorinator system

[JimK]

Thanks Ben.

After re-reading my post, I guess I should have specified that I don't follow the SWCG manufacturer's recommendation on FC levels (1-3) since in the past it has just resulted in algae problems; not visible algae, but a slick liner, which I imagine would have turned into visible algae had I not addressed it quickly. Even with FC levels at 7-8, I was still having problems (important to note that at that time I was not using borates or Polyquat 60).

Your explanation seems to mirror one thing I've learned since having a pool (this is the only pool I've ever owned; installed in 2004), that what works for one pool may not work for another. I suspect that at least part of the reason is that the environment around the pool is likely different for every pool.

Thanks to sites like this and a particular pool store manager that was genuinely interested in helping me and not just selling me a bunch of chemicals, I've learned quite a bit over the years and continue to do so.

After a steep learning curve, I settled on a routine that has worked for me for the past several seasons. It pretty much includes the following:

FC at 5 (as mentioned, controlled using an Aquarite SWCG)
TA 80-100 (I use bicarb to raise when it gets low)
PH 7.5-7.8 (I add muriatic acid once it hits 7.8; PH has never been too low, so I've never had to add anything to raise it)
Borates 40-50
CYA 70-80

In terms of regular maintenance, besides testing and adjusting the above as needed, each week I add a maintenance dose (8oz) of Polyquat 60 and a maintenance dose of Jack's Magic Purple Stuff (12oz; I use to have problems with staining before using this. I was told the staining was a side effect of the SWCG. Since using it, I've not had any staining problems.). I shock every 2 weeks (or after a big storm) using calcium hypochlorite (68%). Also, I run the automatic vacuum frequently to keep the pool clean (every couple days on average).

I'm not sure if I'm overdoing things and wasting money by using both Poly60 and borates. I started using them at about the same time (I was fed up with the liner frequently getting slick with aglae so decided to hit it with both guns!) so I'm not sure if just using one would give me the same algae control.

I would appreciate your input on my routine and if you have any suggestions that may save me time and money.

Thanks again.

[JimK]

(testing addition of signature)

[Watermom]

It's there!

[waterbear]

Ben, the 5% CAME from Chem geek! It has been proven to be effective in a vast majority of salt pools, possibly because of the super shocking that occurs in the cell. (In fact I am not familiar with one case where there were algae problems with someone following it and making sure that FC did not drop below that but,as we know, there are always exceptions to everything!) Also, remember that 5% is the MINIMUM FC level you should run.

[JimK]

Ben, the 5% CAME from Chem geek! It has been proven to be effective in a vast majority of salt pools, possibly because of the super shocking that occurs in the cell. (In fact I am not familiar with one case where there were algae problems with someone following it and making sure that FC did not drop below that but,as we know, there are always exceptions to everything!) Also, remember that 5% is the MINIMUM FC level you should run.

Interesting that this pool calculator, www.poolcalculator.com/ , recommends the same thing. If I type in a CYA level of 80, for SWCGs it recommends a minimum FC level of 4 (ie 5%).

Here's a snippet from that site;

...Many people find that a SWG will work with a slightly lower FC level than other forms of chlorine....

[waterbear]

The pool calculator was originally written by "JasonLion" over at TFP and it was at TFP where chem geek (Richard) basically came up with the 5% and we tested it out and it worked very well (back when I was a Mod over there) so it's no surprise that Jason incorporated Richard's guidelines into his pool calculator. We did a lot of experimentation and 'tweaking' in the early days of TFP. The pool calculator has since been sold to pSIFlow Technology Inc. and I am not sure if it is being updated anymore.

The active ingredient in the original Optimizer is/was sodium tetraborate pentahydrate (borax). It requred the addition of acid along with it to maintain the pH. If you have the pH neutral product that does not require acid addition to maintain pH then it is mostly boric acid with some borax (about 90% boric acid and 10% borax, pentahydrate form, by weight). 50 ppm is considered optimum for borate in a halogen (chlorine or bromine) pool, 30 ppm is the lowest effective level for algaestatic effect. 50 to 80 ppm is recommended for biguanide pools but there is a very small concern of possible toxicity at the higher levels. These levels go back to the original tests done by John Girvan of Proteam in his test pools in St. Augustine and Jacksonville, Florida in the early '80s before he sold his company to Haviland and went to work for them.

[PoolDoc]

Speaking of CH levels, the paperwork that came with my pool states that CH is necessary to keep the liner from becoming brittle. Is this true or BS?

I've several times talked to engineers at the companies that make the vinyl sheeting (not completed liners) and they tell me it is NOT true. In any case, if you did have loss of calcium chloride, it wouldn't make the vinyl brittle. PVC is naturally brittle, with or without calcium carbonate filler -- you have to add a plasticizer to make it flexible. Loss of plasticizer WILL make it brittle.

Interesting that this pool calculator, www.poolcalculator.com/ , recommends the same thing. If I type in a CYA level of 80, for SWCGs it recommends a minimum FC level of 4 (ie 5%).

As Waterbear notes, it's not exactly a coincidence.

50 to 80 ppm is recommended for biguanide pools but there is a very small concern of possible toxicity at the higher levels.

As best I can tell, the toxicity issue applies primarily to folks who have (a) male dogs who (b) drink a lot of pool water, and (c) have not been fixed, but are planned (d) for breeding. Significant borate ingestion can impair canine fertility and is possibly mutagenic. One of the other PF Support Team members does not use borates because she breeds German Shepherds and they do drink a lot of pool water.

[PoolDoc]

I would appreciate your input on my routine and if you have any suggestions that may save me time and money.

Jim, I had to go look up some of your IP addresses, to find out approximately where you are. Virginia is much more like Tennessee or N. Georgia, then like California . . . and I'm pretty sure we have more of a problem with algae than folks in S. California or Arizona.

Richard (Chem_Geek), Mark (mas985) and I have gotten an email discussion going about this that's probably up to 3,000 words in just a few hours. I guess we'll need to migrate it to the China Shop.

In your case, if I were you, I'd experiment with dropping the polyquat rather than the borates. Unless you are backwashing a LOT, you shouldn't be having to add borates much. One caution: polyquat is a pretty effective clarifier, so if that function is affecting your pool and you lose clarity you might try substituting a small dose of a conventional clarifier.

You might want to raise the borate level a bit. I still have no hard data, but it seems that 50 ppm may be the low end of the range for effective algae-stasis.

Best wishes!

[waterbear]

After a steep learning curve, I settled on a routine that has worked for me for the past several seasons. It pretty much includes the following:

FC at 5 (as mentioned, controlled using an Aquarite SWCG)
TA 80-100 (I use bicarb to raise when it gets low)

If you drop the TA down to 70 or even 60 you will have a slower pH rise since there will be less outgassing of CO2, the primary cause of pH rise in most pools (excluding curing plaster).

PH 7.5-7.8 (I add muriatic acid once it hits 7.8; PH has never been too low, so I've never had to add anything to raise it)

Wait for the pH to climb above 7.8. If you are testing it regularly you will see when this happens before it goes too high. Borate tends to stabilize the pH at 7.7 to 7.8 for an extended period of time compared to pools without borate.

Borates 40-50
CYA 70-80

In terms of regular maintenance, besides testing and adjusting the above as needed, each week I add a maintenance dose (8oz) of Polyquat 60 and a maintenance dose of Jack's Magic Purple Stuff (12oz; I use to have problems with staining before using this. I was told the staining was a side effect of the SWCG. Since using it, I've not had any staining problems.). I shock every 2 weeks (or after a big storm) using calcium hypochlorite (68%). Also, I run the automatic vacuum frequently to keep the pool clean (every couple days on average).

I'm not sure if I'm overdoing things and wasting money by using both Poly60 and borates. I started using them at about the same time (I was fed up with the liner frequently getting slick with aglae so decided to hit it with both guns!) so I'm not sure if just using one would give me the same algae control.

I would appreciate your input on my routine and if you have any suggestions that may save me time and money.

Thanks again.

I would use sodium hypochlorite (liquid chlorine or bleach) instead of the cal hypo. I assume you are not testing your CH because it is a vinyl pool. This is NOT a good idea with a SWCG since scaling of the cell is a real worry. Just because you don't NEED calcium added if it is low does not mean you do not need to know what the level is so you can avoid possibly scaling conditions.

[PoolDoc]

Just because you don't NEED calcium added if it is low does not mean you do not need to know what the level is so you can avoid possibly scaling conditions.

Good reminder!