Spring opening cloudy pool excessively high PH > 8.2

[JuJuBee]

19 Apr 2012

Pool Chemicals EXACT product names:

• -BioGuard Maintain Easy Shock & Swim - multi-purpose shock
• -BioGuard Inhibit Back Up - algae preventative & killer
• -BioGuard Maintain Silk Sticks with Silk Guard
• -BioGuard Sanitizer Super Soluble (old version)
• -BioGuard Maintain Super Soluble Sanitizer
• -BioGuard Off the Wall cleaner - thicker formula
• -E-Z Chlor pH Up
• -Pool Perfect+ Phos Free
• -Pool Pride pH increaser
• -HTH Clarifier
• -Pooltrine 60 Algaecide & Water Clarifier - Applied BioChecmists
• -Robarb Pool Specialties Back Wash
• -GLB Pool Care Vanquish - deposit control

Correction: Pool company did not offer to help with borates. I don't usually talk to them unless we have a problem. This year I posted on your site first. I just know we can buy BioBuard Optimizer Plus. I saw that 45 lbs was between $120-$124. The 8 lbs. would be another $25. I did buy the borate strips and expect them to arrive tomorrow with the test kit too.

[PoolDoc]

-BioGuard Maintain Easy Shock & Swim - multi-purpose shock => diluted dichlor -- needs to be disposed of in pool, LATER.
-BioGuard Inhibit Back Up - algae preventative & killer => cheap foamy algaecide -- do NOT use!
-BioGuard Maintain Silk Sticks with Silk Guard => trichlor + MYSTERY ingredients, probably copper or borax
-BioGuard Sanitizer Super Soluble (old version) => dichlor
-BioGuard Maintain Super Soluble Sanitizer => dichlor
-BioGuard Off the Wall cleaner - thicker formula => do not use! (or use in your toilet!)
-E-Z Chlor pH Up => sodium carbonate, washing soda
-Pool Perfect+ Phos Free => do not use!
-Pool Pride pH increaser => sodium carbonate, washing soda
-HTH Clarifier => OK to use, but do NOT overdose!!
-Pooltrine 60 Algaecide & Water Clarifier - Applied BioChemists => Polyquat -- good stuff; save for when you go on vacation
-Robarb Pool Specialties Back Wash => do not use, now! For sand filters only.
-GLB Pool Care Vanquish - deposit control => do not use, now! Mystery soup.

[JuJuBee]

Hi PoolDoc,

03May2012

We've been struggling with the new test kit and wacky results; almost out of titrant and the CYA test chems. Long story for another time because i have many questions about all that testing.

For now, today Pete got the first good results and we need to know how to proceed.
Tonight our FC=4.0; CC=2.0.
(which is weird because 6 days ago we had FC=.4 and CC=3.0 and since CYA was 30, we did a shock treatment of 7.5 pounds Bioguard Dichlor to bring the FC to 30ppm and the CC to 0.0 - Four hours later the Taylor kit reported FC as either 2.0 or 3.6 and CC as either 20ppm or 7.6. Wacky results - so the next day we took a sample to The Great Escape and their results showed FC=0.4 & CC=7.4 - their Hardness=699, Alkalinity=ERR HI >250, pH=7.9, CYA=30. But the Taylor kit showed our pH was 7.2 the two times we tested the night before.)

So, I put in a 2 lb. bottle of Bioguard Easy Shock that same day. On Monday our pool wasn't so cloudy anymore, Pete bought 4 gallons Muratic acid and added only one gallon so far. Our test results tonight are:

• FC 4.0 ppm
• CC 2.0 ppm
• pH < 7.0 (took 21 drops to get correct color for base demand)
• TA = 210
• CH = 250
• CYA = 50

Our question is related to your previous instructions. (steps 4 & 5 from your 5:48am reply on 4/18)

You have the Borate adjustment listed before the reduction of Alkalinity. But since we need to get our pH to below 7.0 to lower our Alky, and that's exactly what it is right now, shoud we do step 5 first? And then when we do the borates thingy, the acid used will benefit that second part of your Alky instructions?

Also, we have no idea what you mean by "aerate" in step 5.

We'll wait to hear from you. Btw, the water is clear now and no longer cloudy. Just high Alky and wacky readings.

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

It sounds like you closed with a definite stabilizer level, and opened with none?

Contrary to what most in the pool industry 'know', stabilizer can be 'eaten' over the winter by bacteria. When this happens, the bacteria 'poop' out either nitrogen gas (no problems!) or ammonia and possibly some other nitrogen compounds (BIG problems).

The second case (ammonia, etc.) shows up in spring time as
1. CYA = 0, or else much reduced from fall level
2. Free chlorine levels rapidly disappear, leaving high combined chlorine levels, when then also disappears.

It appears this is what has happened to you. Unfortunately, the amount of chlorine required to 'burn out' the ammonia is discouragingly high. Unfortunately, there's no short cut -- you just have to keep adding chlorine till the ammonia is gone.

Under the circumstances, I think this is what you should do:
1. Aerate to lower your TA. If you have a bubbler or fountain attachment for your pool return, install it. If not, adjust your return so that the water flow is aimed at the surface, and 'ruffles' the water. The whole process is explained on the lowering alkalinity page. But, you don't have to understand it, to do it. If you aerate (add air) your pool as best you can, and keep your pH low, your TA will drop. If you can't aerate, but keep your pH low, it will STILL drop but it will be slowly.

2. Use up all your dichlor products, starting with the Easy Shock.

3. Stop using the K-2006 for now. Use a K-1000 or a locally purchased OTO kit (this is explained on the test kit page in my signature). Maintain a dark yellow to orangish-yellow chlorine level, first with dichlor, and then with bleach. Add chlorine in the evening. Let levels drop to yellow / dark yellow before re-dosing.

4. If you are nearly out of R-0013 CYA reagent, you can order a pint bottle from Amazon (test kit page, again). If you need other refills, tell us what, and we can tell you how to get them. (But, use the OTO kit, for now.)

5. Be patient. Cleaning up a CYA => ammonia mess takes time.

[JuJuBee]

Hi there!

09 May 2012

Ok, we started aerating yesterday afternoon. We have a small fountain attachment that can connect to one of our return jets. We aimed the other two jets directly at the surface. You can see wavy ripples but it doesn't appear to reach the surface very well. The fountain is splashing air quite well. The filter is on a timer now because my husband is $$weary of it being run 24-7 since the middle of April.

We also did another superchlorination last night because our FC was 1.4 and our CC was 4.4. My calculations (if correct) showed I would need to bring my FC to at least 44ppm to break even?? So I went with 45. I didn't want to add too much dichlor as our CYA was brought to 52 already with that. I knew we could handle going up another 20 or 30 ppm but didn't want to chance having it higher than that. For that reason, in the evening, we added 30 ppm via our Bioguard Dichlor. I added the remaining 15ppm via 3 gallons of liquid bleach. My husband is frustrated because after all that, tonight our readings are pretty much the same or worse:

FC = 2.4
CC = 5.4
pH has now fallen below 7.0 even though we are aerating....
TA = 200 - the same as yesterday
I'm all out of CYA reagent so I can't test that anymore. We also are out of the R871 as of tonight.
I forgot you told us to stop using the K-2006 for now. That could be one of our problems. We'll test again with the OTO kit and get back to you on that reading. I also am keeping in mind to be patient waiting for the alkalinity to drop.

He just tested with two different OTO kits while I am typing. The Pentair 4-way shows TC = 3.0 ppm (a very dark yellow) and the HTH 6-way shows TC = 1.0 or 1.5 (a pale yellow) ????? We'll head out and buy a new kit. I can't stand not knowing the correct reading between three different kits. Is it 7.8, 3.0 or 1.5????

Also, we still have chlorine silk sticks in our inline feeder. Under the method you teach, we wouldn't need to use that anymore, correct? Should it be turned off now? It still has a few left in there and the dial has been set at about 2 1/2 all this time.

I don't know what to do about our CC level. Twice we have followed the instructions for breakpoint chlorination and neither time did it reduce the CC but rather increased it. I understand that if you do less than the breakpoint, it will increase. But either our test kit has been faulty from the start, or their breakpoint instructions of 10 times the CC is faulty. This is actually getting to be expensive. I think that's why he's frustrated. We only have 3 gallons of the liquid bleach left and Pete is putting that in right now. If we had more, we'd add it. He's getting another 7 gallons after his softball game tonight and will put it in when he gets home. I know you said dichlor first, then bleach, but I am holding off on adding anymore dichlor until hearing from you. I want to make sure it's not going to end up pushing our CYA into the toxic range of >= 100ppm with the excessive amounts we've added up until now.

On the bright side, (because there always is one if you're willing to notice it...), our water is probably more crystal clear than any water in the history of the world. (Once we got all the worms from the rain out....) It's quite pretty. Our kids are dying to swim in it because they don't believe it's not safe to, it sure looks safe to them and very inviting! heh heh. I'm comfortable with this method we're learning and I'm confident it will be the better way to take care of our pool from this year forward. I'm just still trying to "sell" the ideas to my husband because he's not as patient and the disagreeing test kits are making him skeptical. We've always been able to swim by now just using the chemicals we always have and the pool was pretty then too. I have to keep reminding him that "convenience" had a high cost to it AND had we had the proper breakpoint chlorination done upon opening our pool this year, which it obviously wasn't, it might not have taken this long.

He has one good question though: you said above,

The second case (ammonia, etc.) shows up in spring time as
1. CYA = 0, or else much reduced from fall level
2. Free chlorine levels rapidly disappear, leaving high combined chlorine levels, when then also disappears.

It appears this is what has happened to you. Unfortunately, the amount of chlorine required to 'burn out' the ammonia is discouragingly high. Unfortunately, there's no short cut -- you just have to keep adding chlorine till the ammonia is gone.

well, if our CYA was 30 for at least 2 weeks and just over 50 for a week now....why is our chlorine still disappearing so fast? I will, of course, re-read him the second part of your quote above and remind him there is no short cut.

Looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much!

[Watermom]

3 gallons of bleach would add 10ppm of chlorine, not 15ppm. How much dichlor did you add? What amount of chlorine does the package say that dose of dichlor will add to an 18K pool? By the way, if your CYA reading is already over 50, you don't want to use any more dichlor. Stick with bleach. Don't use your chlorinator right now. Besides the sticks are probably stabilized -- meaning they add more CYA. You don't need more.

It is a royal pain in the you-know-what to clean up a pool full of ammonia from CYA degradation. We see this every year. People who pour gallon upon gallon of bleach in their pools and they think the chlorine level never will hold! They get so frustrated!!! And, then one day, it holds! Hang in there!

[JuJuBee]

9 May 2012

Last week, we added 7.5 lbs. dichlor. I added 7.5 lbs. dichlor again last night. Glad I didn't use more tonight. I don't know what my CYA is after last night, I'm sure it's got to be close to 70 by now....

I'm calculating the amount of chlorine needed using "TABLE B" on page 54 of the Taylor Test Kit guide that came in the K2006 kit. It shows how much of a product to add to achieve 30ppm. My Dichlor is 55-56% available chlorine. I use the 60% row and subtract 2,000 gallon amounts from the 20,000 gallons amounts. Since my dichlor is 91% of "60%", I take 91% of that amount. It came out to 7.5 pounds of dichlor to add 30 ppm.

The 10% available row (liquid bleach) shows 6 gallons to add 30 ppm for a 20,000 gallon pool. It would be 5.5 gallons for an 18,500 gallon pool. So then 15ppm should be about half of that, or 2.75 gallons bleach.

Anyway, that's how I figured it out. Please let me know if I've done it wrong. Thank you soooooo much. I hope to find a way to share things I'm good at with you guys someday. You deserve to be on the receiving end once in a while!

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I think I found my mistake. I was assuming liquid chlorine from the store, whether clorox or off-brand, was 10%. I haven't checked the bottle, but from other posts I read, it's probably only 6%???? Is that the mistake I made in calculations?

[Watermom]

Could be. Some bleach is 5.25%, some is 3%, but most that is sold now is 6%. And, if it is not fresh, it may not even actually be the strength it is supposed to be.

[JuJuBee]

Hi,

Thanks so much for getting right back to me. You must have me mixed up with a different thread? Your instructions so far have been about lowering our pH and keeping it there until the alkalinity came down. (You guys are really busy right now and working so hard, so I understand.)

Hi JuJu; A few quick notes: ...
2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6! ... Report complete results, once you have them.
4. Consider doing borates to 50 ppm (ie, BioGuard Optimizer). You'll need the test strips, about 15 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax, and about 5 gallons of muriatic acid. Borax makes a pool a bit more forgiving, and also, a bit more 'sparkly' ...

Hi JuJu; ... Under the circumstances, I think this is what you should do:
1. Aerate to lower your TA ... The whole process is explained on the lowering alkalinity page. But, you don't have to understand it, to do it. If you aerate (add air) your pool as best you can, and keep your pH low, your TA will drop. If you can't aerate, but keep your pH low, it will STILL drop but it will be slowly ...
5. Be patient. Cleaning up a CYA => ammonia mess takes time.

You and Janet have helped lower my high pH and Alkalinity as well as discovered my ammonia mess. Everything you tell me to do is working. I was just waiting to hear back on when and how to start increasing my pH and if it's time to merge that into the borates step. (and how to know I'm "really" at shock levels with my chlorine additions and not making things take longer than it has to.)

How much borax do I add??