Spring opening cloudy pool excessively high PH > 8.2

[aylad]

Just curious--when you're using your K-2006 to measure chlorine, are you using the 10 mL or 25 mL sample? If you'll use the 10 mL, your reagent will go a lot further, because each drop represents 0.5 ppm of CC...

[JuJuBee]

Hi aylad,
Thank you, and yes, I figured it out just before I ran out of titrant. I initially thought that the 10 ml sample was a second resort, but not the preferred method. Is there ever a time when 10 ml is an unreliable sample size? My last sample was 25ml because I forgot and then it was too late.

As for my OTO readings...they are uncertain. Since opening the pool this year, whether I use OTO or FAS-DPD, my samples are always slowly changing color and never "permanent." For instance, here is the results of my morning testing:
Water temp = 64 degrees

HTH OTO Kit - (5 ppm is the highest reading)
Added 5 drops to sample - Counted to 30 ("1/1000, 2/1000, etc." method)
TC=1.0 color
@ count of 60 TC=1.0 color .....but.....
@ count of 90 TC=2.0 color
after 2-3 minutes TC=5.0 color
After 5 minutes, TC was higher than 5.0 and a deep gold color

PENTAIR 4-way OTO kit - (3 ppm is the highest)
Added 5 drops to sample - Counted to 20 using 1/1000 method
@ count of 20 TC=1.0 color
@ count of 40 TC=1.5 color
@ count of 60 TC=2.0 color
@ 2 minutes TC=3.0 color
@ 3-4 mins TC=darker than 3.0 color and deep golden

I'm pretty good with discerning color. I don't know at what point the color should be "recorded" and considered correct. I read somewhere when samples sit too long they can have a reaction to the oxygen in the air and so they will get darker naturally because of that, so logic says "within a few seconds after swirling" should be correct. Yet the OTO kit says FC can be measured by watching for results a few seconds after dropping and swirling reagent, but if you wait a few minutes, the color will give the TC reading. ??? Then I read in a post on this forum waterbear commented that this information was wrong and OTO tests TC only. Period. I've read enough on this forum already to trust more in waterbear's opinion (as well as all the moderators.) But there was still is no indication anywhere as to when that TC is properly reflected in the color, especially if it's gradually changing at a slow but consistent pace for an entire 5 minutes.

My FAS-DPD never achieves permanent "clear" regardless of the amount of titrant drops added which is why I ran out so fast. After a reasonable amount of drops that I was expecting, a sudden change from the pink to a very light pale/blush pink occurs and I think, "cool, we're almost there..." After that, additional drops turn it clear immediately and then almost as fast the water begins to turn back to the blush pink. I kept going until it was permanent as some of the other posts had instructed. However, each subsequent drop, the clear would hold a few seconds longer than the previous and then start to change to blush pink again. This went on forever. The "permanence" was the blush color - not an absence of color. I never knew at what point the "change" to clear could reliably be considered permanent. So every time, when I was about to add the reagent for the CC part of the test, my sample was already turning blush pink before the first drop or gradually darkening from a blush pink. Then the first titrant drop would turn the sample to a raging hot pink, way darker than the DPD powder did in the FC part of the test. By the fifth drop, it was obviously going to take almost a quarter bottle of the titrant before any change in the color would start to happen. The times I forged ahead, I would get the faint/lighter pink finally, but again - never could get to a "clear" absense of color permanently. It was frustrating not knowing if the 10, 15, or 30 seconds it held the clear (or was absent of color) was reliable because as I was writing down the results, I'd glance over and there would be a definite pink returning.

Learning to correctly use the K2006 can wait. Maybe I should just create a new thread for needing help with these kits and move the previous paragraph to that. I'd rather wait for one of the moderators to let me know if I should do that before cluttering up another thread with my wordiness.

For right now, with following instructions from Ben up to this point, I believe my greatest and most pertinent need is to know exactly when to capture that OTO reading so that I can get my CC under control and get my kids swimming. That is, if there is any CC to control. Which I'm still convinced there is, but I'm just a beginner. I have no idea if I'm losing chlorine over night or not and if so, if it is significant. I also don't know if I have a higher CC than an FC still.

I need help with proper OTO reading under these circumstances. Do I add chlorine only when the color is below the 3.0 ppm color and not look for orange-ish anymore? How will I know when it is safe for my kids to swim? We've got 80 degrees expected in a few days and their whines are escalating just as fast.

Why wouldn't I ever see orange or brown with the high amounts of chlorine I've added? Is it possible that 50 ppm could be eaten up in under an hour even if my CYA is so high, my pH is 7.2 and my Alkalinity is 140 AND it's in the evening with no sun? If it is possible, what would cause that? Keep in mind ...... I do not have ANY odors, or any discoloration. The water is beautiful and sparkly.

I'll post our readings from this evening as best I can. We weren't planning on adding bleach first again tonight unless it was necessary.

[JuJuBee]

Did not add bleach tonight.
Test results were similar to last night and this morning using the OTO test.

9:00 pm - using HTH OTO 6-way kit
pH = 7.2
TC = ? 2.0 or 3.0.....after swirling within the first 30-60 seconds....?? probably higher..... after a couple minutes it was the color of 5.0 ppm
CYA = 90
TA = (120) 96.6 ... w/ cyanuric acid correction
CH = 330

Nice numbers! The success on following your "lowering alkalinity" process has made me a permanent believer in this site and it's applications and theories. I've definitely gotten way more value than the price of subscribing to this forum!!

Now we need to know exactly where our CC and FC is at so that we can get those levels in the correct place. I thought we should have added borax tonight since we are continuing to aerate but the pH has not increased on it's own. But I am waiting to hear back regarding all my posts and test results before I feel comfortable taking anymore action with adding chemicals, (or thinking I know enough to go it alone....I DON'T!)

I'll also try to remember to post a picture of our pool tomorrow so you can see how pretty the water looks.
Thanks, please let us know our next step.
Judy

[JuJuBee]

Anyone?? Should we add borax now? Start the Borates thingy???

Water temp = 72 degrees
Chlorine is 1.5 ppm as of 1:00 pm today. I let the kids swim after school - I thought it was safe....??
pH is still 7.2
Still aerating....

We'll put a large dose of chlorine in this evening again.

In one of the firsts posts above, our goal was to possibly do the Borates to 50ppm and lower alkalinity. We've done the alkalinity. But I'm waiting to see what should be done next based on where we stand this week.

Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

If you are seeing a significant difference between your initial OTO color, and your 5 minute color . . . you are still cleaning up ammonia and goo.

Adjust the pH to near 7.8 (didn't I say that before?) and hold it there. Continue to dose 5 - 10 ppm chlorine each evening; skip if your 5 minute OTO is dark yellow. Once you've held your pH at 7.8 for 48 hours, you can swim. (You can swim, now, but it may be REALLY irritating to the eyes. Even at the high pH, it will be irritating to some people, so the first time everyone swims, limit them to 15 minutes. That way, you can see if anyone in your family is sensitive to combined chlorine.)

Otherwise, just hold the course, till you've gotten rid of all the goo, that's turning into combined chlorine.

[Watermom]

Judy,
Please don't be offended by this; it is only meant to help.

Having said that, the reason you may not be getting as many replies as quickly as you like is that your posts are SO long and time-consuming to read. On the Pool Forum, especially this time of year where we are swamped with posts, we don't have time to read multiple lengthy posts and then have to scroll back through multiple lengthy posts to find out what all has already been said in previous posts. Although we need adequate information to be able to help, brevity and getting right to the point make it much easier for us to help. With the number of new posts per day that are coming in right now (and it is high!!) we don't have the time to spend 20 to 30 minutes or whatever on each thread before we have to move on. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to help as many people.

I hope you understand and realize that I am not trying to criticize or anything like that, but simply trying to help.

[JuJuBee]

Hi,

Thanks so much for getting right back to me. You must have me mixed up with a different thread? Your instructions so far have been about lowering our pH and keeping it there until the alkalinity came down. (You guys are really busy right now and working so hard, so I understand.)

Hi JuJu; A few quick notes: ...
2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6! ... Report complete results, once you have them.
4. Consider doing borates to 50 ppm (ie, BioGuard Optimizer). You'll need the test strips, about 15 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax, and about 5 gallons of muriatic acid. Borax makes a pool a bit more forgiving, and also, a bit more 'sparkly' ...

Hi JuJu; ... Under the circumstances, I think this is what you should do:
1. Aerate to lower your TA ... The whole process is explained on the lowering alkalinity page. But, you don't have to understand it, to do it. If you aerate (add air) your pool as best you can, and keep your pH low, your TA will drop. If you can't aerate, but keep your pH low, it will STILL drop but it will be slowly ...
5. Be patient. Cleaning up a CYA => ammonia mess takes time.

You and Janet have helped lower my high pH and Alkalinity as well as discovered my ammonia mess. Everything you tell me to do is working. I was just waiting to hear back on when and how to start increasing my pH and if it's time to merge that into the borates step. (and how to know I'm "really" at shock levels with my chlorine additions and not making things take longer than it has to.)

How much borax do I add??

[JuJuBee]

Watermom:
I TOTALLY understand! Thanks for your kind way of sharing that.

I figured this out for myself yesterday after reading and observing the activity on other posts - but there is no way for me to go back into my own posts and edit them. I wanted to!!! I'd like to shorten them so what is most necessary can quickly be seen by others reading this thread and needing the same help! (I'm kind of hurting them too...) Is there a way I can be allowed to do that?

I just worked very hard to keep my reply to PoolDoc shorter.

[Watermom]

Don't worry about going back. Just for future ones. Thanks for understanding.

[JuJuBee]

Pool Doc and Watermom:

I need some help getting my water ready to swim for company this weekend, Memorial Day. As my initial problems within this thread have been resolved (too high of pH and Alkalinity) using it to solve new problems is making it too lengthy.

Which thread should I post my current needs in ..."Testing and Adjusting Pool Water Chemistry" or "Pool Chemicals & Pool Water Problems"? My water, while still looking "perfect", is difficult to test and I can't get rid of that 1-2 ppm CC.

I'll wait for your advice on where to post.

(Also, do you ever provide phone support? If even at a fee? Lots of questions can be answered in a short amount of time when not relying on interpretation or back and forth through postings. My private messaging is turned off so I have no other way to pose this question...sorry.)