aciam - Nightmare conversion from baquacil to chlorine

[aciam]

I was hoping to get some more advice about how to proceed at this point. so, I added no bleach all day yesterday - the morning readings were 11.5 FC and 12 for CC ( yikes) - after reading your advice I retested at 7pm and the FC was 9 and the CC 4.5. I then added 1/2 gallong bleach (12.5%) and retested at 830pm - the FC was only up to 10 and the CC was approximately 9!!! I ran out of the titrating reagent for my kit at this point.

I figured all the bleach I added pretty much got combined with that high of a reading. So, I decided to add 1 more gallon of bleach for overnight work in a desperate attempt to kill off the combined chlorine. Not sure if that was correct.

I decided to head to the pool store this am to get the water tested since I couldnt do it here and realized that they cant test above 5ppm with their in store test! The guy made me feel really badly about having so much chlorine in the pool - he said he had never seen the color turn so deep pink/red and guesstimated a free chlorine of 7 and total chlorine of 9. I bought some test strips that check total and free chlorine myself just as a way to get through today without my testing kit up and running - they test up to 10ppm - and both pads hit that mark ( for FC and TC). Problem is I don't know where I am in terms of my CC and what to do today in terms of adding bleach now.

The pool store guy made me feel so badly I practically ran out of the store. He suggested non chlorine oxidizer - and told me that if I put clothes in the pool right now they would bleach out immediately. I'm hoping you guys can make me feel better about what I am doing because I feel like things are getting worse in terms of my CC instead of better. I am now on day 11 of this process. The pool looks really great today - clear and blue and of course the weather is supposed to be in the high 90's the next several days - and my kids are dying to swim.

so, here are my questions. Why does the CC keep climbing so incredibly high? the sand is changed and clean and has no residual baquacil in it and my baquacil readings on day 6 were 0.

Is it the free chlorine I am supposed to keep at 12-15? what about the total being so high?

I noticed my chlorine is maintaining itself throughout the day despite sun ( yesterdays readings of 11.5 in the am to 9 in pm with no added bleach) doesn't that seem like a good thing? like I am ready to let it drop to levels we can swim in? ( my kids so want to swim)

what do I do today since I have no good way to test for CC?


Thanks so much. aciam

[CarlD]

Either of 2 things is going on: You still have a lot of conversion yet to do, or you are running the test incorrectly.

Meantime, order more of the reagents on-line. If somehow, by a miracle the pool store guy is right and your FC was 7 and TC was 9, that means your CC was 2. Remember TC = FC + CC. Always.

Plus the test strips' TC block is never very accurate. the FC block is better. You can dilute a sample of pool water with steam distilled water 1:1 and then use the strip. If it reads "10" your FC is 20, or double. Again your TC is probably not going to make sense. But if you remember that TC MUST be greater than or equal to FC, you'll realize the TC test on the strips isn't very good.

I "cheat" and use strips to get a quick idea of my water, but I've been using the FAS-DPD tests for SO many years, as well as the OTO tests, that I can easily verify with the FAS-DPD test that the FC pad on the strip is reasonably accurate, but the TC pad is garbage.

Now remember that you must keep your FC level at the recommended shocking level (based on your stabilizer level) until your pool is COMPLETELY clear and you get no CC reading (at least not higher than 0.5ppm). Then you can back off your chlorine levels, adjust your other readings, and replace the now-gooped-up sand in your filter.

All the best,

Carl

[aciam]

I know the pool guy was just guessing because his test didn't go higher than 5ppm. I think my test strip pad is more accurate and that the FC is probably 10 or a bit higher. But I have no idea what my CC is. Oh and the sand was changed 2 days ago which is why I am so confused as to why the CC is still so high - there is no residual baquacil to react with. I also have no stabilizer in yet as per the conversion instructions - waiting to get things set straight before I do that. I'm pretty sure I am doing the test correctly. But in all my reading I have never seen CC levels as high as mine which is worrisome to me. would love some reassurance.

so I guess today I will just try to keep the FC up at 12-15 by my pad tests - the new reagents were already ordered and should be here tomorrow and then I can regroup.

Any answers to my other questions from the previous post? Thanks! aciam

[aylad]

so, here are my questions. Why does the CC keep climbing so incredibly high? the sand is changed and clean and has no residual baquacil in it and my baquacil readings on day 6 were 0.

Is it the free chlorine I am supposed to keep at 12-15? what about the total being so high?

The CC is climbing high because the chlorine is still trying to kill off something in the water, probably leftover residual from the Baq and other Baq products. If you changed the sand before all the Baq goo was gone, then you probably do still have some in the filter and will need to change the sand again, once it's all gone. We normally recommend that you get to the point of no CC and holding chlorine overnight before sand changes, and that is why.

Yes, the FC needs to be 12-15 ppm in order to kill off whatever is causing your CC. If you keep the chlorine up, the CC will eventually come down and the gunk is removed from your pool. Sometimes it just takes a lot of patience, persistence, and being very diligent about keeping the chlorine high.

Janet

[aciam]

OK guys - I just got my new titrating reagent today and I am getting some scary numbers on the test. After adding bleach, my CC has climbed to 25 with a FC of 15. It has been 2 weeks since I started the conversion - I had much lower levels of CC the first week. the pool is crystal clear but my hands hurt after getting a water sample! What am I doing wrong?

[Watermom]

Try that test again. I'm pretty sure those numbers can't be right.

[PoolDoc]

Go purchase a cheap OTO test kit, and see what color you get, please.

I'm concerned about what's happening. I emailed you my phone number.

Ben

[Watermom]

Ben,
Please come back and update this thread and let us know what's up with this pool after you talk with this poster.

[PoolDoc]

These two threads:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...hlorine-Locked
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...il-to-chlorine

seem to be both products of an issue I don't remember dealing with before: pools with a LONG history of Baquacil use, before conversion.

I talked with "Aciam" at length last night, and agreed upon the following:

#1 - Test with OTO ; ignore FC / CC differientiation
#2 - Dose to dark yellow (~10ppm); allow it to drop to medium yellow (~2 ppm)
#3 - Continue filtering 24/7
(Aciam's water is clear, but some sort of surface debris is forming continuously and being collected on her skimmer sox)
#4 - Dose with polyquat that the FIRST signs of algae (slippery sides on Aciam's vinyl AG pool)
#5 - If no resolution after a few days, consider drain and refill (AG pools ONLY!)

My **guess** is that there's a huge accumulation of Baqua-goo from the years of Baquacil use, and that -- whatever else Baqua-goo is, chemically speaking -- it is very resistant to chlorine oxidation. The high CC levels are a result of slow (but sure) oxidation by chlorine.

What's weird is that her FAS-DPD readings did NOT match her OTO test results at all. I trust OTO more than DPD, so I made the recommendation above. However, I had to tell her I really have no idea how cleanup will take. I've emailed Chem_Geek to see if he's collected any info on this.

Ben

[PoolDoc]

This is what I posted in the other thread -- but it applies here, too. It's amazing that, having never encountered this here before, we have two simultaneous cases!

Ben

PS. Just found a study of the biodegradation of PHMB. One implication is that, if you let your pool go swampy for a few weeks, bacterial biodegradation of the Baqua-Poop may occur. If you were to try this, and have any of your old filter sand around, you might want to toss some in the pool AFTER the chlorine is gone. Apparently PHMB-eating bacteria accumulate in the filters of PHMB treated swimming pools!

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Hi Reesie;

Just heard from Chem_Geek. He's seen some similar situations on other forums he frequents -- and as best he can tell, the situation is just what I guessed.

You've used Baquacil for years, and have years of "Baqua-poop" or residue from Baquacil in your pool. This stuff is HARDER to break down then Baquacil itself. Apparently, it can take up to 6 weeks to complete the conversion. Richard (Chem_Geek) thinks using sodium percarbonate doses might help, but this is a bit of a guess, too.

Here are links, if you want to try that:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium...ate_30lbs.html
http://www.soapgoods.com/Sodium-Perc...FB-p-1001.html

The bad news is, I don't think it's safe to swim while your CC levels are so how. If you read aciam's thread, you'll see it hurt her hands to just stick them in the water.

The really bad news is, I can't tell you much of anything definite:
+ Nobody who knows just what "Baqua-poop" (residue from Baquacil use) is is talking or publishing. ICI Americas, who patented the product, probably knows. But they haven't made that info available.
+ So . . . nobody knows what's forming when chlorine breaks Baqua-poop down. Observation (test, smell) indicates that it's some sort of noxious chloramine.
+ And, since nobody knows what it is, nobody is sure how to go about breaking it down faster.
+ Worse, this is such an uncommon event, that nobody has good guidelines to offer you.

Your options:
#1 - Keep chlorinating. It will eventually break down and go away, but it may take weeks more.
#2 - Buy sodium percarbonate and add that, too. (Let us help you with the doses if you do this)
#3 - Add copper sulfate. Copper sulfate (a pool algaecide) breaks down Baquacil; it may break down Baqua-Poop. It probably won't make anything worse. You may be able to get it at Lowes as "Root destroyer" in the plumbing section; you can buy it from the chemistry store link. Again, let me help you with doses if you do this.
#4 - Drain and refill.

I wish I had better news for your.

Ben
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