On TFP and PoolForum

[waste]

I just want to add that I'm not sure if Sean's 'advertising' of his site 'counts' as 'advertising'. He doesn't charge for joining his site, so really isn't selling anything other than another place to ask pool related questions, and it does follow/ recommend Ben's BBB method (though, more often than not- without giving due credit to Ben for creating the method). Yes, he is promoting his site hard, (as is understandable since he's trying to build up his site) including references here - but as Chuck said [quote]His promoting of his site is limited here, and tactful.[/u] (the only thing I would disagree with is the "tactful" part - Sean likes to remind folks of Ben's not fulfilling test kit orders when they've been payed for - other than that , I would say Sean has been 'tactful' -).

In short, I think that www/troublefreepool.com is a GREAT site, wherein the pool owners not able to join this site can find the answers to their pool questions using the same 'methods' Ben advised.

Folks who know that I'm no longer a member of Sean's site may think that this is 'contradictory' - but I support any site that teaches pool owners the 'truth' and a better way

[mwsmith2]

it does follow/ recommend Ben's BBB method (though, more often than not- without giving due credit to Ben for creating the method).

Ehhh, to say that ben came up with the idea of using chlorine for sanitizing a pool is a bit of a stretch. Liquid chlorine has been around for ages. Yes, ben did popularize it as a sanitization method here, but it's just application of simple chemistry that anybody would have seen if they'd taken the time to read the labels on what they were buying. The borax part of it is somewhat unique, but that's what makes up proteam supreme, so again, just a matter of reading a label.

I honestly don't see the need for any citation.

Michael

[ChuckD]

Agreed.
Ben is noted for his Demystification of the Black Art of Pool Maintenance. "BBB" is something that got coined as a term for avoiding getting "pool stored".

Where's Sean's follow-up post from last night?

C.

[CarlD]

We have unlocked that other thread. I can assure you that when I am on TFP I always abide by the rules of that forum as interpreted by TFP's moderators.

Yes, we are hoping Ben re-appears and makes it possible for new registrants again.

"B-B-B" was a fun term that shortens the process to 3 letters--I don't know who coined it--it might have been me, might not.

"Pool stored" was definitely mine...but I don't have a copyright on it!

[chem geek]

Though BBB may not have fully originated with Ben, I think he was one of the first to recognize and attempt to quantify the relationship between chlorine and CYA in terms of chlorine's effectiveness against algae prevention (notwithstanding the flawed methodology in the Sommerfeld/Adamson paper). A combination of experience and I believe some conversations with chemists culminated in Ben's Best Guess CYA chart. Though the science behind this equilibrium relationship was definitively determined in 1973 and presented at a symposium in 1974 published in the following reference

J. O'Brien, J. Morris and J. Butler, “Equilibria in Aqueous Solutions of Chlorinated Isocyanurate”, Chapter 14 in A. Rubin, ed., Chemistry of Water Supply, Treatment and Distribution, 1973 Symposium, (published 1974), Ann Arbor Science, Ann Arbor, MI, pp. 333-358.

this only implied a fairly linear relationship (when the CYA ppm >> FC ppm) whereby the ratio of FC to CYA roughly determined chlorine's effectiveness (that is, the hypochlorous acid concentration). As for what ratio inhibited algae prevention, this apparently came from Ben's experience with many pools over many years.

For this, and of course for PoolSolutions with all of the other tips and useful information and for The Pool Forum itself, Ben deserves a lot of credit.

At the time I ran into The Pool Forum, I had already begun working on my spreadsheet determining a Calcite Saturation Index since the LSI in the industry didn't match the Taylor watergram and seemed wrong in some of its terms. I then wanted to add the chemical equations for the chlorinated cyanurates (chlorine combined with CYA) when I ran into this website and started conversing with Ben. I eventually found another source for the equilibrium constants, but made The Pool Forum my home for posting results (suitably relegated to The China Shop due to its technical content).

I am currently trying to shift the pool industry into adopting these chemical principles into standards such as the APSP-11 and into training such as NSPF CPO and APSP Tech courses. I also want to initiate a study on using a small amount of CYA in indoor pools to reduce the over-chlorination in such pools including the possible greater production of disinfection by-products (indoor pools without CYA have 10-30 times the hypochlorous acid level of typical outdoor pools with CYA). Another study I would like to see is on using sodium chlorite as a way of generating chlorine dioxide (which inactivates Crypto at least 15 times faster than chlorine) in commercial/public pools after a diarrhea fecal accident since the CDC now has guidelines that would effectively eliminate CYA since it would prevent fighting against Crypto (see here) . This will be a long haul, but I believe it to be worthwhile.

Were it not for Ben and The Pool Forum, I doubt that I would have pursued these efforts as I would not have known that the problems I encountered with my pool after 1-1/2 years (with CYA getting to 150 ppm) were so common and so easily mitigated.

Richard