Pump/Filter Sizing Mytery

[kingbud]

Edit by Watermom: Kingbud -- a family-friendly forum, please. I deleted the questionable references to the previous owners.
Last edited by Watermom : 09-16-2008 at 07:45 PM.

Watermom- oops, sorry... it won't happen again. Somewhere in scripture it says, "If a just man correct or reprove me it is a kindness." I think that applies here. (btw, I can't figure out how the Quote feature works)

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Hey Vinyl Guy: Thanks for your excellent advice and counsel. Watch this space.......

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[Watermom]

Thank you, Kingbud. We appreciate your good attitude and hope you understand our reasons for trying to keep the forum clean.

[kingbud]

An interim response while I'm working on the camera deal

The pool is definitely painted (blue green) and the transverse cracks I mentioned were not intended or planned. They meander in a sort of lazy, curvy fashion all the way across the width of the pool. I mentioned "expansion" joints because they look like they might have served, or do serve, that function.

re: cracks in deck: "Are these diagonal lines/cracks perfectly straight? If so the deck has dropped right at the point it was predicted it would happen after the pouring of the deck. This would have been a different kind of "expansion joint", a relief joint."

negative; I see what you are saying, but the cracks are quite jagged. I'll shoot a picture of them. Interesting that you say that this would be the right location where a builder would normally have put expansion or relief joints. I'll have to ask the builder. The striking thing about these are the relative uniformity, and the size of the chunk of real estate that they border - you really see it from a ways back.

re: air in returns: That's most likely not a problem with the return line. Rarely will water being pushed through a return line, pick up air from that line and dispense it into the pool. A return line is more likely to push the water out of any "leak" while running.

Your explanation concerning the returns makes good sense... I'm gonna call that (tentatively) good news. The procedure for wetting the joints on the supply side makes good sense, too. However it's too late for that, the level is below the skimmer so I can't operate the pump. I'm gonna test the suction line from the skimmer (that's all there is anyway) and if it holds, great, otherwise I'm pretty sure I know where to dig. Any suction pipe from the ground up is going to be replaced when I put in the new pump anyway. I suppose I ought to cut off the suction pipe from the main drain and cap it while I'm at it, since I'm going to abandon it -- maybe I'll test it first and use dye or watch for bubbles to see if those plugs are holding. Does any of that make sense? I guess if I cap it off and abandon it, what difference would it make?

I guess that's about it until I take some pictures. I plan on showing you the "relief" cracks, the hill if I can figure out how to get you a good perspective, the lateral cracks, and of course the fiberglass...

Oh, by the way, in my first conversation with the builder he gave me the impression that this type pool, with the fiberglass side walls, is typical for them. Can't wait to get your "views", after I have sent you something to view. Oh heck, when can you just fly out? A week from Sunday I could take you to a Chiefs game (v. Broncos). Ha. Ha Ha HA. Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...........................

[Vinyl_Guy]

An interim response while I'm working on the camera deal

The pool is definitely painted (blue green) and the transverse cracks I mentioned were not intended or planned. They meander in a sort of lazy, curvy fashion all the way across the width of the pool. I mentioned "expansion" joints because they look like they might have served, or do serve, that function.

It's most likely a concrete pool or a gunite that's been painted. How smooth is the surface? Very smooth, or just a bit gritty like a fine sandpaper? Or is there a definite roughness to it? If it's concrete a new coat of paint can do wonders. Ramuc is the only brand I've every used. Have done several Rudd Murray pools (a monolithic poured concrete design) with it and quite a few commercial pools too. It's been the industry standard for quite a few years. A pressure wash or in extreme conditions a water blast (with no abrasives), cleansing wash (degreasing soap), then a TSP (tri sodium phosphate) to neutralize anything, then another rinse is the prep. I prefer the Dawn Blue, although it looks a bit "commercial" sometimes on smaller residential pools.

re: cracks in deck: "Are these diagonal lines/cracks perfectly straight? If so the deck has dropped right at the point it was predicted it would happen after the pouring of the deck. This would have been a different kind of "expansion joint", a relief joint."

The deck probably would have dropped the same distance, but it's appearance would have been a lot less unsightly, with relief joints. If you think of the slab as one monolithic pour, it's the corners that are the weakest if anything is undermined. The larger rectangular sections on either end have the better size shape and mass to resist breaking.

Your explanation concerning the returns makes good sense... I'm gonna call that (tentatively) good news. The procedure for wetting the joints on the supply side makes good sense, too. However it's too late for that, the level is below the skimmer so I can't operate the pump. I'm gonna test the suction line from the skimmer (that's all there is anyway) and if it holds, great, otherwise I'm pretty sure I know where to dig. Any suction pipe from the ground up is going to be replaced when I put in the new pump anyway. I suppose I ought to cut off the suction pipe from the main drain and cap it while I'm at it, since I'm going to abandon it -- maybe I'll test it first and use dye or watch for bubbles to see if those plugs are holding. Does any of that make sense? I guess if I cap it off and abandon it, what difference would it make?

That maindrain line still being plumbed into the suction side of the pump could be the source of the air. If it's plugged at the drain due to leaking then there's no doubt a source of air. When and if you test it you'll be looking for movement in the water with the dye, not necessarily bubbles since the line will be "charged" with water for the testing. If you empty it completely and paint it, you can just look for water escaping. My impression of all main drain that are plugged is that they are faulty. I actually can't remember one that ended up not being so. Remember when you do convert the return line to suction put a fitting on the end for safety. They usually look something like this:

I guess that's about it until I take some pictures. I plan on showing you the "relief" cracks, the hill if I can figure out how to get you a good perspective, the lateral cracks, and of course the fiberglass...
Oh, by the way, in my first conversation with the builder he gave me the impression that this type pool, with the fiberglass side walls, is typical for them. Can't wait to get your "views", after I have sent you something to view. Oh heck, when can you just fly out? A week from Sunday I could take you to a Chiefs game (v. Broncos). Ha. Ha Ha HA. Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...........................

Hey I'd love to, and appreciate the thought, I got the time. Unfortunately because I'm not working right now. Going back to school, gonna start using my head instead of my back. But alas I don't have the dough. Isn't that always the case, when you have the time off you rarely have the money.

[kingbud]

Boy, thanks again for all your insights! This post mainly to let you know that I've sent two messages via "forum" e-mail-- I don't think they are getting through! Need your actual e-mail address so I can send you some pictures...

[Vinyl_Guy]

Boy, thanks again for all your insights! This post mainly to let you know that I've sent two messages via "forum" e-mail-- I don't think they are getting through! Need your actual e-mail address so I can send you some pictures...

Got it, emailing you back details and suggestions.

[kingbud]

Hey Mr. VG -- you still out there? Something interesting turned up when I was tearing everything down this weekend, getting ready for winter: remember our discussion of the plugged main drain? when I took the end off of the ball valve on that line, the line was full into the valve. the skimmer line was full to the same level, both about 4" below the common suction line into the pump. This level was a good 3' above the pool surface where it now is. Care to speculate? btw, got good flow out of the jets when I blew them out, and was able to blow the skimmer line out from the pump end back to the pool. I plan on pressure testing all the lines, but I was a bit surprised to find the skimmer and main drain lines holding water.

The pool builder hasn't made it over yet... but he was complaining about having 3 kids in football, so maybe he can find some time in a couple weeks. Thanks for your interest.