Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

[aylad]

Man, I really hate it when you type a long, detailed post and the computer burps and it goes away.......................

Anyway, of your three choices, I definitely like the Medallion best--that's what I was talking about when I said I planned to go blue for my next liner. I like that one a lot. On first glance, I like the Arcadia second, only because it's the more aqua colored, but then when I looked at it on the other page (the one just with samples, no actual pools), the bottom looks more dark blue than it did on the other page, which makes me like it the same as the Medallion. Same thing with the Arizona...it does look like a pretty busy pattern to me, and I don't care for it much in the aqua, but I'm wondering about the color change from one page to the other? If it's dark blue, it might not be so bad.

Anyway, those are purely my opinions....just remember, you asked!

Janet

[elsie]

Oh that's annoying when you lose a post. Since I can only post from work and have to fit them in when I can, I usually compose in Word then drop it into the dialogue box and send off right away.

I just called the most respected pool/spa place in town (they don't do liners and I knew that, but then thought I'd call for liner recommendation) and asked who they recommend, and they gave me the name of Jack at Professional Pools, a guy who I had called last Saturday and who was going to come over last night but the adjuster was coming and now we're playing phone tag). Hollywood gave him rave reviews. So I will meet with him hopefully very soon. Recommendations like this are very meaningful, very important. For all I know the guy I've been talking about in these posts doesn't do good work. It's so hard to know unless you get real live recommendations/references. And in all likelihood he'll use a different liner outfit or even have multiple ones and I will have more choices (yeah, just what I need?). It sure would be optimal to be able to see the actual pool with any given pattern/color. Then you know you wouldn't err on the wrong color!

Hey, thanks for your input!

[Vinyl_Guy]

Vinyl Guy,

Thanks so much, and I'll print your posts and bring home to review tonight and look at my system and respond tomorrow. But I can tell you one thing, the cover on my main drain is most definitely a grate-type one. I can see now that it's probably wise to just keep it closed and get a new vortex cover.

No problem, glad to be of service.

You don't have to be 100% informed , but having a basic working knowledge of what you've got and what your contractor is suggesting for options can make a world of difference. It's a lot to take in, take your time, I didn't mean to overwhelm you.

If the main drain isn't functioning, and your not going to have it repaired (which is very very common considering the cost usually). It's best to have the "pot" removed and have it resurfaced in that area. There's no sense in introducing points of possible failure , that have no purpose. The ring, screws, plates and gaskets that seal off the "pot", are all possible failure points in the future. So is the pot itself, and the pipes and fittings that the water leads into. If it's bad, and your not going to have it repaired, I highly recommend just eliminating it. The less to go wrong, means less goes wrong.

Plus it's much easier to vacuum the bottom with no drain .

A good and honest liner technician has nothing to hide from an informed customer. Any time you don't go into something blind, do your research, learn what you can, and ask questions, the outcome is bound to be better.

Good Luck (but you'll need less of it, if your informed ).

[elsie]

Very smart advice to just remove it and resurface as you said, very VERY smart to do now when the pool is empty and liner's being swapped out. The liner guy that I'm now probably not going to go with simply because some of his 'facts' were incorrect (a big tipoff that something's not right--he should certainly know the mil/gauge of the liner he's pushing as well as which mil is on the sides and which on the bottom) said there's probably vermiculite behind the liner, not concrete, can this substance be resurfaced? I always thought it was concrete because it's so hard. My only experience with vermiculite is that it was the tiny goldish *soft and loose* stuff (like confetti) that was in the attic of my old house in Mpls. (before I moved here to Alabama).

I'm so glad you hopped into this thread. I will most certainly have that drain cap filled in/however it's done, assuming it's doable. Then I can dismiss any potential problems down the road/getting sucked into it and becoming part of the Alabama underground landscape. Umm, but how is it filled in since there's a hollow pipe below it? Sort of like when I go to caulk something when the crack is too big you have to put something in there or the caulk would just go down down down?

[Vinyl_Guy]

Very smart advice to just remove it and resurface as you said, very VERY smart to do now when the pool is empty and liner's being swapped out. The liner guy that I'm now probably not going to go with simply because some of his 'facts' were incorrect (a big tipoff that something's not right--he should certainly know the mil/gauge of the liner he's pushing as well as which mil is on the sides and which on the bottom) said there's probably vermiculite behind the liner, not concrete, can this substance be resurfaced? I always thought it was concrete because it's so hard. My only experience with vermiculite is that it was the tiny goldish *soft and loose* stuff (like confetti) that was in the attic of my old house in Mpls. (before I moved here to Alabama).

I'm so glad you hopped into this thread. I will most certainly have that drain cap filled in/however it's done, assuming it's doable. Then I can dismiss any potential problems down the road/getting sucked into it and becoming part of the Alabama underground landscape. Umm, but how is it filled in since there's a hollow pipe below it? Sort of like when I go to caulk something when the crack is too big you have to put something in there or the caulk would just go down down down?

Vermiculite can be patched very easily. Most liner technicians will have a bag or two to touch up spots here and there when they remove a liner. I described it like this to customers, it dries hard, about as hard as leaving a sheet cake out for a month. Very hard but when broken it crumbles. It's used so that if there's any heaving or failure underground you don't end up with a very sharp and rigid broken edge, like a buckled side walk. There's an edge but when push comes to shove it crumbles and breaks rather then tearing through the liner. I've dove into pools with a rubber mallet and a broad board and pounded out imperfections in aged pools. It can always be "manipulated" since it never fully "sets up" like concrete. A bowling ball works marvelous on protrusions, but you have to have expereince in how much of a brunt force a liner can take.

Anyway........

Here's what the your main drain probably looks like:


It's a basically a pot with a female threaded inlet (there's usually one on the bottom too). A flat surface on top that receives a cork gasket and a ring, both of equal size and shape, with screw holes through them. The screw hole pattern in the pot matches the ring and and gasket's screw hole pattern. The grate or vortex lid is mounted separately. The whole thing is no larger then a sauce pan.

All that needs to be done is to dig a little bit around it through the vermiculite. Find the "pipe" and cut it. The pipe remains buried forever, it's below the the surface of the liner and even the layer of vermiculite. Remove the pot, fill the hole in with some good fill that doesn't have any organic matter in it (clean fill). A 5 gallon bucket is usually enough. Tamp it very well because the pressure of the water will want to compress and compact it. Leaving this fill just even with the bottom of the existing vermiculite. The "verm" is usually about 2" (inches) thick on average. Mix about one bag of verm up, patch and "feather" it in with the rest of the bottom. At that point it's much like a repair to drywall, no liner technician worth his weight would bat an eye at doing this, what's charged is the only difference.

Now it is more work, the labor and drying time and so forth. But he does save time when installing the liner. There's no gasket and screws to fiddle with and make sure are sealed absolutely perfect. He also doesn't have to spend money on a new ring, a cork gasket, and a vortex lid. Which is the case if he quoted you "all new" for those items.

So it's sort of a trade off for him. More work at first, then less work. Some money for materials, but then a savings on less parts. But less problems to worry about in the long run, and less possibility for something he installed to have a problem.

I did it for free, because for me the trade off of not having it, versus a customers want to not spend more money (can't blame them) was worth it (to me). Who's going to opt for something that costs more, if I have to guarantee the sealing of it anyway (for a certain time)? And for me not having it is a bonus. So other then extremely outstanding circumstances (concrete for example), I did it for nothing if they wanted it gone forever.

What he's going to charge if he decides it's an "extra" is anyone's guess. I"d push him (a little) to do it for free, he knows it's good for him and it's about a wash when it comes to time and materials.

Unless he tries to soak you, I'd have the darn thing removed.

[shadowman]

..... probably vermiculite behind the liner, not concrete, can this substance be resurfaced? I always thought it was concrete because it's so hard. My only experience with vermiculite is that it was the tiny goldish *soft and loose* stuff (like confetti) that was in the attic of my old house in Mpls.

In my IG vinyl, the vertical sides are galvanized steel and the hopper bottom is packed sand. I suppose they could use vermiculite in place of sand but as you suspected, it is granular and wouldn't be on the verticals.

[Vinyl_Guy]

In my IG vinyl, the vertical sides are galvanized steel and the hopper bottom is packed sand. I suppose they could use vermiculite in place of sand but as you suspected, it is granular and wouldn't be on the verticals.

Yes all vertical sides or "walls" are some form of construction. Whether galvinized steel, aluminum, or polymer, or other structural technique .

Everything else, the angled deep end, below the walls, the slope from the shallow end to the deep end, and all the flat "bottoms" are some sort of troweled material. At first it was sand, sometimes stone dust, sometimes a mixture of sand and grout , and more recently (historically) a layer of vermiculite. In rare cases I've seen concrete. Any one of them is adequate once the liner is installed an filled with water. A more substantial "bottom" material will hold its shape better though, over the years, and if there's a catastrophic failure.

But I've taken liners out with all sand bottoms that are as pristine as when the pool was installed. It depends more on how much care the builder took compacting these areas before applying a final layer of any material. The draw back to sand is when a pool is abandoned and empty for a long stretch. It begins to dry and collapse. Verm will do the same thing but it takes much longer.

[shadowman]

The draw back to sand is when a pool is abandoned and empty for a long stretch. It begins to dry and collapse. Verm will do the same thing but it takes much longer.

In my part of Oregon, if a vinyl pool was abandoned and empty through winter, the liner would be floating on a new pond with a nice sand bottom.

[elsie]

By the way, I should retitle this post to "Every Pool Owner With An Old Liner's Best Dream." I mean, how often does one get an old liner replaced for free?

Vinyl Guy,

I looked at my set up last night to confirm what I thought I had: in the main skimmer there is a second port which is capped with white pvc. I've always wondered what that was all about since it's not in use, so to speak.

At the pump (although the piping is all broken up), there are two underground lines (pipes) that come up: one is connected to the sand filter right below the multiport; and the other one has the water ball valve and it's connected to that secondary skimmer basket, because when I go to clean it out I always turn the water valve off to slow the water pouring out of it after I open the lid.

When you mention "window into your pump body" do you mean the clear plastic lid to the secondary skimmer basket at the pump? I don't have any other windows…but I can say that it's tight, i.e., I never see bubbles in it. I think the circulatory system is intact as it should be, and it's just a matter now of permanently eliminating that main drain or, at the very least put a vortex cover on it. But, I do prefer and will aim to have it removed altogether and the patchwork done as you have suggested in order to preclude leakage problems in the future.

Once again, I so much appreciate your latest post about how the main drain should be handled. And, the information so that I can present a feasible argument to the liner guy as to what should be done and why it shouldn't cost much more, if anything.

I am very glad to say that the liner guy who comes highly recommended finally called me back this morning (he's been busy getting his daughter into college) and he's coming over tomorrow morning. Tonight I will print your latest posts and review/commit to memory so I can "talk the talk" with Jack in the a.m. If I should fail, my back up is to whip out the print out and let him read it for himself. Nonetheless, I am so much more comfortable going into this with what I have learned from you. Knowledge IS everything, even a rudimentary working knowledge (which is my best hope, ha!). Thanks again for all your help (everyone's help), and I'll let you know Monday how my meeting with Jack tomorrow went.

[Vinyl_Guy]

By the way, I should retitle this post to "Every Pool Owner With An Old Liner's Best Dream." I mean, how often does one get an old liner replaced for free?

Vinyl Guy,

I looked at my set up last night to confirm what I thought I had: in the main skimmer there is a second port which is capped with white pvc. I've always wondered what that was all about since it's not in use, so to speak.

It's actual original purpose had several uses, one being a different diameter line. One is usually 1 1/2", and the other 2". Using one of them to plumb the maindrain line into, is just a method some builders opted for. If a pool requires more volume of water to be circulated the larger "hole" accepted the fittings for larger pipe. I was just trying to figure out if that's where your main drain line went. But if it's capped, then we can eliminate that. If it had a black plug in it, I'd would highly suspect that it was plumbed there and was "eliminated".

At the pump (although the piping is all broken up), there are two underground lines (pipes) that come up: one is connected to the sand filter right below the multiport; and the other one has the water ball valve and it's connected to that secondary skimmer basket, because when I go to clean it out I always turn the water valve off to slow the water pouring out of it after I open the lid.

Ok it's hard to tell what you mean by the description. This was bound to happen.

But consider this next time you look at it. If a pipe is not connected to a multi-port then it's probably not coming from, or going to, the pool. If it's connected to the "body" of the sand filter itself it's probably some sort of drain, or backwash line. The multi-port takes the water from the pump (you can probably trace that line) puts it into the sand filter, the water returns to the multi-port (from the sand filter) and is then put back into the pool (by the multi-port, hence it's name). No piping (usually and with out knowing your exact system), that comes from the body of the sand filter is normally coming from or going to the pool itself. It's usually exiting the body of the sand filter itself to the "outside" in the form of a drainage, or backwashing.

So it's still hard to tell what you have as far as how many suction lines . Between it being broken and you trying to remember what it was like, me not seeing , or knowing the exact nature of the equipment I'm still not sure if you have only 1 suction line and 1 "return line. Or more then 2 of each, or any variant in between.

If you turning a ball valve to keep the water from overflowing, to empty a basket, it sounds like your system might be below the level of the pool. Is that the case with your pump and filter?

When you mention "window into your pump body" do you mean the clear plastic lid to the secondary skimmer basket at the pump? I don't have any other windows…but I can say that it's tight, i.e., I never see bubbles in it. I think the circulatory system is intact as it should be, and it's just a matter now of permanently eliminating that main drain or, at the very least put a vortex cover on it. But, I do prefer and will aim to have it removed altogether and the patchwork done as you have suggested in order to preclude leakage problems in the future.

Yes I'm speaking of that second "skimmer". I tend to call the square opening at the pool that receives the water the "skimmer", and the "strainer" inside the pump body underneath the window, the "basket". But there is another basket at the "skimmer". The nomenclature isn't rigid with pools . Returns are called "jets" by some and so forth.

Either way that's a good sign, if your system previous to this mess, didn't have bubbles in that "window" then it's a good possibility the suction line(s) are intact. How that was done while there's a main drain sitting down there is anyone's guess. There's obviously a line coming from it, where it leads to or connects to is anyone's guess, it might have been cut underground long ago just below the pump and buried. It could have originally come up out of the ground as an individual line, and when it failed, was cut and buried for aesthetic and/or easier access to the system.

Once again, I so much appreciate your latest post about how the main drain should be handled. And, the information so that I can present a feasible argument to the liner guy as to what should be done and why it shouldn't cost much more, if anything.

Why have it? That's the bottom line. If it's not working, is a potential failing point in the liner, there's no reason not to eliminate it from the whole scenario. As much as I'd like to see you have it done for free, even a nominal fee for removing it is worth it (for you). I didn't charge because a nominal fee wasn't worth the trade off of less hassles.

I am very glad to say that the liner guy who comes highly recommended finally called me back this morning (he's been busy getting his daughter into college) and he's coming over tomorrow morning. Tonight I will print your latest posts and review/commit to memory so I can "talk the talk" with Jack in the a.m. If I should fail, my back up is to whip out the print out and let him read it for himself. Nonetheless, I am so much more comfortable going into this with what I have learned from you. Knowledge IS everything, even a rudimentary working knowledge (which is my best hope, ha!). Thanks again for all your help (everyone's help), and I'll let you know Monday how my meeting with Jack tomorrow went.

Whoa whoa don't be printing out "anonymous" posts from forums, and shaking them in his face . It's hardly a replacement for being there, seeing your system and giving you advice. As maybe a trusted neighbor , boy friend, or other acquaintance might. Some times the last thing a contractor wants to hear is something like: "my father told me...." or "my husband said.....", never mind "this basically anonymous guy wrote to me in a forum that......."

There's a lot I could be incorrect about, or is only partially accurate, simply for the fact that the details of your system are totally unknown to me. I'm going with opinions based on assuming a lot of things. The two holes in the skimmer for example, at the time I was only trying to figure out where your drain line was going. Their purpose and why they're there, was too complicated to get into. They're used for several different things, not just plumbing main drains into, and when they were used for that there was a a diverter valve that sometimes accompanied them. Sort of a buttlefly type set up that sat on the bottom of the skimmer.

I even forgot about that till now . Many of these butterfly valves became detached or broken over the years and pools lingered with virtually no flow from the maindrains. See how relying on what I wrote so far, could "backfire". .

Best just to say "I've read". Quote me if you like, but it's not going to carry that much weight with some one who's actually there...

But you are on the right track. Your trying to get a handle on what's going on out there. Ask him to give you a quick walk through. Most technicians don't mind. It's not algebra (no offense) , it's in/out. It's left/right. Suction/Return. But unless someone walks you through it at least once, it can be confusing.

If this goes on any longer, a picture and the parts numbers off your equipment would help us a lot. I still have no idea what kind of sand filter or pump you have. They're all essentially the same, but some are odd, or work differently.

There's just so much I can impart to you, and so much that's going to be entirely accurate with out actually being there. But your trying, and reading.Looking up your part numbers online and reading the manuals (when available) helps too.

Let us know what happens. I'm unemployed right now and going back to school so I've got some free time. It makes me feel much better when I'm helpful and productive. Mowing the lawn only provides just so much satisfaction in these areas.