Every Pool Owner's Worst Nightmare

[Vinyl_Guy]

In my IG vinyl, the vertical sides are galvanized steel and the hopper bottom is packed sand. I suppose they could use vermiculite in place of sand but as you suspected, it is granular and wouldn't be on the verticals.

Yes all vertical sides or "walls" are some form of construction. Whether galvinized steel, aluminum, or polymer, or other structural technique .

Everything else, the angled deep end, below the walls, the slope from the shallow end to the deep end, and all the flat "bottoms" are some sort of troweled material. At first it was sand, sometimes stone dust, sometimes a mixture of sand and grout , and more recently (historically) a layer of vermiculite. In rare cases I've seen concrete. Any one of them is adequate once the liner is installed an filled with water. A more substantial "bottom" material will hold its shape better though, over the years, and if there's a catastrophic failure.

But I've taken liners out with all sand bottoms that are as pristine as when the pool was installed. It depends more on how much care the builder took compacting these areas before applying a final layer of any material. The draw back to sand is when a pool is abandoned and empty for a long stretch. It begins to dry and collapse. Verm will do the same thing but it takes much longer.

[shadowman]

The draw back to sand is when a pool is abandoned and empty for a long stretch. It begins to dry and collapse. Verm will do the same thing but it takes much longer.

In my part of Oregon, if a vinyl pool was abandoned and empty through winter, the liner would be floating on a new pond with a nice sand bottom.

[elsie]

By the way, I should retitle this post to "Every Pool Owner With An Old Liner's Best Dream." I mean, how often does one get an old liner replaced for free?

Vinyl Guy,

I looked at my set up last night to confirm what I thought I had: in the main skimmer there is a second port which is capped with white pvc. I've always wondered what that was all about since it's not in use, so to speak.

At the pump (although the piping is all broken up), there are two underground lines (pipes) that come up: one is connected to the sand filter right below the multiport; and the other one has the water ball valve and it's connected to that secondary skimmer basket, because when I go to clean it out I always turn the water valve off to slow the water pouring out of it after I open the lid.

When you mention "window into your pump body" do you mean the clear plastic lid to the secondary skimmer basket at the pump? I don't have any other windows…but I can say that it's tight, i.e., I never see bubbles in it. I think the circulatory system is intact as it should be, and it's just a matter now of permanently eliminating that main drain or, at the very least put a vortex cover on it. But, I do prefer and will aim to have it removed altogether and the patchwork done as you have suggested in order to preclude leakage problems in the future.

Once again, I so much appreciate your latest post about how the main drain should be handled. And, the information so that I can present a feasible argument to the liner guy as to what should be done and why it shouldn't cost much more, if anything.

I am very glad to say that the liner guy who comes highly recommended finally called me back this morning (he's been busy getting his daughter into college) and he's coming over tomorrow morning. Tonight I will print your latest posts and review/commit to memory so I can "talk the talk" with Jack in the a.m. If I should fail, my back up is to whip out the print out and let him read it for himself. Nonetheless, I am so much more comfortable going into this with what I have learned from you. Knowledge IS everything, even a rudimentary working knowledge (which is my best hope, ha!). Thanks again for all your help (everyone's help), and I'll let you know Monday how my meeting with Jack tomorrow went.

[Vinyl_Guy]

By the way, I should retitle this post to "Every Pool Owner With An Old Liner's Best Dream." I mean, how often does one get an old liner replaced for free?

Vinyl Guy,

I looked at my set up last night to confirm what I thought I had: in the main skimmer there is a second port which is capped with white pvc. I've always wondered what that was all about since it's not in use, so to speak.

It's actual original purpose had several uses, one being a different diameter line. One is usually 1 1/2", and the other 2". Using one of them to plumb the maindrain line into, is just a method some builders opted for. If a pool requires more volume of water to be circulated the larger "hole" accepted the fittings for larger pipe. I was just trying to figure out if that's where your main drain line went. But if it's capped, then we can eliminate that. If it had a black plug in it, I'd would highly suspect that it was plumbed there and was "eliminated".

At the pump (although the piping is all broken up), there are two underground lines (pipes) that come up: one is connected to the sand filter right below the multiport; and the other one has the water ball valve and it's connected to that secondary skimmer basket, because when I go to clean it out I always turn the water valve off to slow the water pouring out of it after I open the lid.

Ok it's hard to tell what you mean by the description. This was bound to happen.

But consider this next time you look at it. If a pipe is not connected to a multi-port then it's probably not coming from, or going to, the pool. If it's connected to the "body" of the sand filter itself it's probably some sort of drain, or backwash line. The multi-port takes the water from the pump (you can probably trace that line) puts it into the sand filter, the water returns to the multi-port (from the sand filter) and is then put back into the pool (by the multi-port, hence it's name). No piping (usually and with out knowing your exact system), that comes from the body of the sand filter is normally coming from or going to the pool itself. It's usually exiting the body of the sand filter itself to the "outside" in the form of a drainage, or backwashing.

So it's still hard to tell what you have as far as how many suction lines . Between it being broken and you trying to remember what it was like, me not seeing , or knowing the exact nature of the equipment I'm still not sure if you have only 1 suction line and 1 "return line. Or more then 2 of each, or any variant in between.

If you turning a ball valve to keep the water from overflowing, to empty a basket, it sounds like your system might be below the level of the pool. Is that the case with your pump and filter?

When you mention "window into your pump body" do you mean the clear plastic lid to the secondary skimmer basket at the pump? I don't have any other windows…but I can say that it's tight, i.e., I never see bubbles in it. I think the circulatory system is intact as it should be, and it's just a matter now of permanently eliminating that main drain or, at the very least put a vortex cover on it. But, I do prefer and will aim to have it removed altogether and the patchwork done as you have suggested in order to preclude leakage problems in the future.

Yes I'm speaking of that second "skimmer". I tend to call the square opening at the pool that receives the water the "skimmer", and the "strainer" inside the pump body underneath the window, the "basket". But there is another basket at the "skimmer". The nomenclature isn't rigid with pools . Returns are called "jets" by some and so forth.

Either way that's a good sign, if your system previous to this mess, didn't have bubbles in that "window" then it's a good possibility the suction line(s) are intact. How that was done while there's a main drain sitting down there is anyone's guess. There's obviously a line coming from it, where it leads to or connects to is anyone's guess, it might have been cut underground long ago just below the pump and buried. It could have originally come up out of the ground as an individual line, and when it failed, was cut and buried for aesthetic and/or easier access to the system.

Once again, I so much appreciate your latest post about how the main drain should be handled. And, the information so that I can present a feasible argument to the liner guy as to what should be done and why it shouldn't cost much more, if anything.

Why have it? That's the bottom line. If it's not working, is a potential failing point in the liner, there's no reason not to eliminate it from the whole scenario. As much as I'd like to see you have it done for free, even a nominal fee for removing it is worth it (for you). I didn't charge because a nominal fee wasn't worth the trade off of less hassles.

I am very glad to say that the liner guy who comes highly recommended finally called me back this morning (he's been busy getting his daughter into college) and he's coming over tomorrow morning. Tonight I will print your latest posts and review/commit to memory so I can "talk the talk" with Jack in the a.m. If I should fail, my back up is to whip out the print out and let him read it for himself. Nonetheless, I am so much more comfortable going into this with what I have learned from you. Knowledge IS everything, even a rudimentary working knowledge (which is my best hope, ha!). Thanks again for all your help (everyone's help), and I'll let you know Monday how my meeting with Jack tomorrow went.

Whoa whoa don't be printing out "anonymous" posts from forums, and shaking them in his face . It's hardly a replacement for being there, seeing your system and giving you advice. As maybe a trusted neighbor , boy friend, or other acquaintance might. Some times the last thing a contractor wants to hear is something like: "my father told me...." or "my husband said.....", never mind "this basically anonymous guy wrote to me in a forum that......."

There's a lot I could be incorrect about, or is only partially accurate, simply for the fact that the details of your system are totally unknown to me. I'm going with opinions based on assuming a lot of things. The two holes in the skimmer for example, at the time I was only trying to figure out where your drain line was going. Their purpose and why they're there, was too complicated to get into. They're used for several different things, not just plumbing main drains into, and when they were used for that there was a a diverter valve that sometimes accompanied them. Sort of a buttlefly type set up that sat on the bottom of the skimmer.

I even forgot about that till now . Many of these butterfly valves became detached or broken over the years and pools lingered with virtually no flow from the maindrains. See how relying on what I wrote so far, could "backfire". .

Best just to say "I've read". Quote me if you like, but it's not going to carry that much weight with some one who's actually there...

But you are on the right track. Your trying to get a handle on what's going on out there. Ask him to give you a quick walk through. Most technicians don't mind. It's not algebra (no offense) , it's in/out. It's left/right. Suction/Return. But unless someone walks you through it at least once, it can be confusing.

If this goes on any longer, a picture and the parts numbers off your equipment would help us a lot. I still have no idea what kind of sand filter or pump you have. They're all essentially the same, but some are odd, or work differently.

There's just so much I can impart to you, and so much that's going to be entirely accurate with out actually being there. But your trying, and reading.Looking up your part numbers online and reading the manuals (when available) helps too.

Let us know what happens. I'm unemployed right now and going back to school so I've got some free time. It makes me feel much better when I'm helpful and productive. Mowing the lawn only provides just so much satisfaction in these areas.

[elsie]

Roger that, you're absolutely right, I should *not* give him the print out. Diplomacy such as "I've read..." is infinitely more appropriate.

Heading out of work now, I'll check in on Monday.

[Vinyl_Guy]

Roger that, you're absolutely right, I should *not* give him the print out. Diplomacy such as "I've read..." is infinitely more appropriate.

Heading out of work now, I'll check in on Monday.

Wheh that makes me feel better....... (for both of us).

If I thought something I was telling you was 100% accurate I'd day so, but I've been sprinkling my posts with lots of "probablys", "most likelys" , and "usuallys". If only to err on the side of caution.

Have a good weekend.....

[elsie]

As it turns out, the liner guy most recommended is the same guy who installed my present liner about 10 years ago (4 years before I bought the property), and unlike all the other liner outfits I met or spoke with, he was far more knowledgeable and paid infinitely more attention to details, and could answer all my questions, and even had real-live liner samples, so I hired him. He apparently used to build pools, but now just does liners -- a lot less hassle he said after 28 years in the business.

The main drain will be history. He's not charging extra to fill it in and do the patchwork. He thought he remembered that the walls of my pool are wood construction. Insatiably curious, after he left I sliced a wall of the liner and through the foam barrier and sure enough, it's a very hard, very even type of wood. I asked him wouldn't wood rot? He said no, surprisingly. But, he did say that my pool was poorly built. There's going to be significant patching because you can see the divits in the deep end walls that have developed over time -- this concerns him a little. Still, with the new liner, foam, patchwork within reason, removal of main drain, and restoring most of the pvc's at the pump, he's charging hundreds less than the competition -- $2675. (By the way, I mis spoke earlier--plus I asked liner guy--there's only one incoming pipe that comes from underground with the water-valve that connects to the 2ndary skimmer basket, and then the one outgoing pipe that connects to/comes from the multi-port (not the sand filter as I reported) and returns the water to the pool -- and yes, my pump is far below sea level.
Janet, I ended up (with some angst) choosing the Santa Fay liner style from taraliners.com. How can you really know without seeing an installation? I even put the brochure on the bottom of the shallow end (water's still in there and not green, even after 12 days now) and stood on it but it was of no help. The liner guy also said a 20/20 mil for my pool is actually better than a 28/20 because the thicker the liner the less pliable it will be in all the nooks and crannies/where the walls and floor meet etc.; and the warranty (20 years pro-rated, two years full) is the same.

I'll let you know how it turns out, and no doubt will need some start up assistance as I try to balance the new water. I'm going to both use the backyard hose and run a longer hose from the front so I can fill it up as quickly as possible. I think I may just wait to chlorinate or add CYA until it's filled and the pump is running. I don't think the water will go crazy green in 2-3 days, especially when it will be on the colder side. Probably the first thing I should do is backwash, as I know there's debris in the pipes, then add half the CYA, add bleach, check the TA and pH and go from there.

All I can say is, how fortunate I am to have incurred this damage. This guy, too, was flabergasted that insurance is paying for replacement and not pro-rating or, at the very least, speaking with a pool person. I mean, his mouth dropped open and he was speechless. I feel a bit like I've won the lottery when, usually, I never win.