Green Hair Problem After Using Bioguard Smart Shock

[PoolDoc]

1. Comment: I will be using liquid chlorine at 10% - that is what is available at my local hardware store for the best $$

We'll need to verify that it IS 10%. It probably WAS 10% when it was bottled, but if it's not stored well, it may not be even 6%. We can roughly verify it using 2 bottles of 10%, 2 bottles of Walmart brand 6% and the K2006.

2. Based on the above, how much should I be adding to the pool?

I had to check the chart and pool dimensions; based on your dimensions, your correct volume is probably around 21,000 gallons, and your PF is 5.5. So, 1 gallons of 6% bleach would add about 2.7 ppm of chlorine to your pool.

What your level should be depends on
1. the decision you make about your direction
2. whether you want to remove the copper, or ignore it. (High chlorine makes stains more likely)
3. whether there is now any algae in your pool.

3. The HEDP & Culator products work together to remove the copper, is that correct?

Yes, the HEDP keeps it in a dissolved form, and the Culator removes dissolved metals.

4. Can copper cause a yellowish stain on the pool, or would it be greenish? I have some mild yellow staining on my liner and steps this year. I am thinking it is either from copper, calcium (since high hardness), or possibly some other chemical in the pool.

It's not copper. If it brushes off and then returns, it might be mustard algae - but that usually appears only where it's shaded and there is no foot traffic. It might be iron, in which case dropping a vitamin C tablet on a stained area will clear a small spot.

5. I have the BioGuard Algicide that is not polyquat - it is the other (I think it is termed as just quat?). What is the disadvantage with the product that I am currently using, other than foaming (which isn't really an issue in my pool)?

If there's not enough to foam, there's probably not enough to have any effect at all -- EXCEPT to use up chlorine and form chloramines.

6. Can I just add a bunch of bleach to increase my chlorine level?

Yes.

There are a lot of other chemicals listed above, and I'm wondering what the benefit is to having them/using them. Specifically, the borates and the bromide are what I am wondering about.

Each of those has specific purpose that will NOT be replaced by a bunch of bleach. This is where part of the mind bending comes. You need to re-read my post and try to understand WHY I recommend using each one. If you DON'T understand, it's likely you won't be able to follow through effectively . . . and I'd rather go more conventionally.

If you get all THESE items, and supply your own full diameter hose (no tiny kinking hoses!), you can drain and refill with no risk to your liner:

Defender 8-Year 35-Feet x 55-Feet Rectangular In-Ground Winter Cover @ Amazon
Little Giant 5-MSPR 1/6 Horsepower Permanently Lubricated Submersible Pump
Wellington G1008S0600 Solid Braid Nylon Rope, @ Amazon (yes, you will need that much rope!)
(2) Set of 12 Large 10" Galvanized Steel Tent Peg Stake @ Amazon
Yellow Jacket 2884 12/3 Heavy-Duty 15-Amp SJTW @ Amazon
(if you use your own, make sure it's big enough so the pump motor doesn't burn up)
Gilmour 10 Series 8 Ply Flexogen Hose 5/8 Inch x 60 Feet
(you'll need 1 hose to fill with, and 1 to drain with, since you'll be doing BOTH at the same time!)

for the cost of the water plus $200 - $300, depending on how much of the above you already have.

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben, thanks again for the reply. Sorry I didn't see it until now.

I did re-read through your previous post and the new post. I will not be draining my pool at this time, as I mentioned that we have a bigger concrete pool decking issue and may be draining anyway at the end of the season.

I will purchase the HEDP & polyquat algicide, and the 10% bleach product - the bleach is sold by my local hardware store, and the staff at large pool in our area purchases it to chlorinate their pool, so I am going to assume that it is fairly "fresh."

I do not believe that the staining on the steps and liner is algae, as it doesn't move at all when swept. I am very good at sweeping the pool at the very least once a week, and more often if I have more swimmers in the pool. The things I have done differently this year is shocked the pool more frequently with the BioGuard Smart Shock, had the pool open and exposed to more sunlight than last year (there is an automatic cover on the pool, and it is now non-functional because of above mentioned pool deck problem), and used new BioGuard pool pucks (just started using those approximately 3 weeks ago now). I have looked around and I see that there are some tests I can administer to determine the stain type. I will try those and get back to you with results.

Today:

pH 7.4
FC 6.2
CC 0.2

[PoolDoc]

I have looked around and I see that there are some tests I can administer to determine the stain type. I will try those and get back to you with results.

Try this one, first:

If it brushes off and then returns, it might be mustard algae - but that usually appears only where it's shaded and there is no foot traffic. It might be iron, in which case dropping a vitamin C tablet on a stained area will clear a small spot.

Also, you *really* need better testing. I'm going to post some links and standard kit info below, but you need to know your calcium, alkalinity and stabilizer levels, with reasonable accuracy . . . and that means a kit, not strips, especially with stabilizer. The stabilizer test is not all that accurate, with the kits, but it's almost meaningless with the strips.

================================================== ============
+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page )

One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.

+ Here are links to the kits we recommend:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) @ Amazon

[SnoopysGirl]

I do have a drop test kit - the Taylor K2006A and I tested for alkalinity, hardness, and CYA on Wednesday. I printed off the Pool School Basic Pool Care schedule which recommended testing only chlorine and pH daily, TA and CH levels weekly, and CYA levels probably monthly (says seasonally, large water replacement). So, I have only been reporting to you my test that I have been performing daily. Tests that I performed on Wednesday are posted on that day.

In looking at the Best Guess Chlorine chart, and hoping that as I stop using the pucks, the CYA will gradually come down as my kids swim and I add water as my pool leaks (*sigh*), I see that I want to keep my FC at about 8-15 ppm.

I can't see what measurements I put in for my pool, but as we have a roman shaped pool and it is 38-40 ft long by 18 ft wide, and 3-8 ft deep, I am getting about 28-29,000 gallons.

How does one figure out ppm in adding liquid chlorine? As soon as the remaining pucks dissolve I am going to start using the liquid.

[PoolDoc]

To figure out ppm per gallon of bleach or LC, you need 3 factors:

1. The PF (pool factor) -- yours is 5.5
2. The % of chlorine in the bleach you have (2, 2.75, 3, 6, 10, 12.5)
3. The approximate weight per gallon -- use 8.5 lbs per gallon for bleach

So, for 6% household bleach, your calculation would be 5.5 x 0.06 x 8.5 = 2.8 ppm / gallon. Usually, I just remember that it's 0.5 lbs Cl2 equivalent per gallon of bleach (0.06 x 8.5), rather than calculating it. So, for 10% bleach, it would be 5.5 x 0.10 x 8.5 = 4.7 ppm, and for 12.5% it would be 5.8 ppm per gallon.

In actual fact, pool store chlorine, except in locations where they have their own bleach tank and get daily deliveries, will only rarely be up to the rated percent. Here's why:



What you are seeing is a pallet of 'liquid chlorine' stored at the doorway of an SCP warehouse at over 90 degrees F. Those pallets come in early May and are stored at warehouse temps for a month or more . . . BEFORE they arrive at the pool store. This picture was taken in May 2011, but there was a pallet sitting in the exact same spot this July, on the day it hit 107! *THAT* bleach probably was less than 4% strength by the time some poor sucker bought it.

It's not deliberate -- I've never talked to anyone at SCP or locally that understood how rapidly bleach breaks down at high temps. But, whether they understand or not, hot bleach still breaks down. By contrast big-box store bleach (a) has to more pure, to avoid laundry problems, so it breaks down more slowly at ANY temp, (b) rapidly transits the supply system, especially at Walmart, and (c) often stored in cooler or even air conditioned areas. So, it's MUCH more likely that 6% Walmart bleach is 6+% than it is that 10% pool store LC is going to be near 10%.

[SnoopysGirl]

Thank you very much!

I am still very confused as to why it says that I have a 21,000 gallon pool in my signature. I have an in ground 18x38 pool 3ft shallow 8ft deep, roman shaped with bumped out step. When I use online pool calculators, they indicate a 28-29,000 gallon pool, and the company that takes care of our pool says it is 33,000 gallons. I usually average everything out and say 30,000, but I want to make sure that I have all of the values correct before I start adding chemicals. It just seems like it is a huge difference. Thanks, again!!

[PoolDoc]

I am still very confused as to why it says that I have a 21,000 gallon pool in my signature. I have an in ground 18x38 pool 3ft shallow 8ft deep, roman shaped with bumped out step.

Here's why:

the top 3' level of pool is LESS than a full 18 x 38 rectangle, assuming your measurements are greatest length and width measurements. In other words, the top part of your pool will fit into a rectangular box, 18 x 38 x 3. But your water depth is going to be LESS than the maximum pool depth, which is normally stated to overflow level, rather than actual water level. So the box is 18 x 38 x 2.8 cft or about 1850 cft OR 13,800 gallons.

Most vinyl pools have nearly flat shallow ends, and the break begins at the midway point. That in turn means that the bottom or deeper section of your pool will fit inside a rectangular box that is 18 x 38/2 x (7.8 - 2.8) or 18 x 19 x 5. That means the absolute maximum volume in the deeper section of your pool is 1710 cft or 12,800.

So, even if your pool was shaped as 2 stacked rectangular boxes, with right angles and no slopes, the upper box (18x38x2.8) resting on the lower box (18x19x5), your absolute maximum pool volume would be 26,600 gallons. If you add 500 gallons for the steps, you'd still only be 27,100 gallons.

BUT, the shape of almost all vinyl pool 'hoppers' -- deeper sections -- is highly sloped, with only a SMALL flat rectangular area at the full depth. Most hoppers are LESS than 1/2 the volume of a rectangular box with the same dimensions. In that case, your pool volume (if we use a hopper at 1/2 rather than something less would be 13,800 (top) + 500 (steps) + 12,800/2 (bottom) or 20,700 or ~21,000 gallons.

If you want an more accurate measure, if you can find the "DIG DRAWING" for your liner, it will usually have a very accurate CAD calculated volume for that pool & liner . . . at the OVERFLOW level of your pool. So, if the normal level is 6" below the OVERFLOW level, you need to take the CAD volume, and subtract 18x38x0.5x 7.48 gal/cft, or 2550 gallons from the CAD measurement.

Pool builders and pool stores almost ALWAYS overstate pool volumes!

Plus I can tell you -- having taught numerous Certified Pool Operator classes, a majority of pool builders can not calculate pool volumes accurately. Trying to get them through that part of the material was always a struggle.

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben, I am so very grateful for the amount of time you and the staff here have spent helping me with my pool. Thank you! I have read through all of the posts from page one, and I am going to do the following things:

1. Test FC, CC & pH daily with the Taylor K2006 kit.

2. Purchase HEDP and Culator to remove any copper and other metals from the pool.

3. Return the Inhibit Algicide and purchase Polyquat 60 Algicide, and use that to prevent an algae outbreak.

4. Purchase and use Borax to raise pH if/when needed (not sure on amount to use - can use guide)

5. When trichlor tablets are gone, begin to use liquid chlorine from hardware store at 10% strength. I am confident in the %, as the store goes through a lot of the bleach for a local company, and it is stored in air conditioning. Based on the Best Guess Chlorine chart, I will want my chlorine level at 8-15 ppm. Based on the calculations provided, 5.5 x 0.10 x 8.5 = 4.7 ppm of chlorine per gallon - adjusting the amount per pool needs. *Question* do I add chlorine to 8-15 ppm daily, or add chlorine to 15, then let it drop to 8 ppm, and do I have a good understanding of how I am to be chlorinating the pool?

6. This is the only part I don't understand: Bromide - I don't know what I need this for, and when I would use it.

I hope I have a good handle on all of the information provided in this thread and on the website. Thank you, also, for the pool volume explanation.

[SnoopysGirl]

In waiting for Ben to reply, I have taken a photo of the stain that is developing in my pool. I think it is probably iron, but I guess it could also be copper. I did the ascorbic acid test today. Here is my photo:



Will the HEDP lift this stain, or does that just take metals already in the water OUT of the water? I am thinking that I will need to treat the stain. Stain treating products have specific recommendations for pool chemistry, and unless there is some miracle product out there, I won't be reducing the CYA by the amount needed. Any advice would be great - thank you!!

[PoolDoc]

The last test indicates that the CYA is 270.

This is the only part I don't understand: Bromide - I don't know what I need this for, and when I would use it.

Assuming the CYA=270 is still correct, sodium bromide will allow you to kill algae without having to raise your chlorine level to 100 ppm or something like that. We're going to TRY to avoid having algae. But, you don't want to bet the farm on succeeding, so you need a backup plan in case you fail. Sodium bromide can be hard to buy locally, so I'm recommending that you purchase it, keep it on hand, but hopefully, never actually use it!

I did the ascorbic acid test today. . . . . Will the HEDP lift this stain, or does that just take metals already in the water OUT of the water?

HEDP might lift the stain, but probably won't. It also won't take the metals OUT of the water; it does EXACTLY the OPPOSITE! It keeps the metals IN the water. The clean up sequence is:

1. Ascorbic acid lifts the stain OFF the steps, and puts the metals IN the water.
2. HEDP *keeps* the metals in the water, once you re-chlorinate (which destroys the ascorbic acid)
3. The CuLator unit + constant filtration REMOVES the metals FROM the water.

All three steps are essential.