Electrical Terminology & Safety Tips

[CarlD]

Ben put it well:

GFCIs are to protect people from electrocution. They do NOT protect the circuit from too much current. The slightest imbalance between the hot and neutral should trip them.

Breakers and fuses protect the circuit from too much current so the wires don't heat up and start a fire.

Too many workman pull out the third prong on plugs. This is, frankly, insane, especially when they work outdoors. My father did that constantly and to this day I'm amazed he died of lung cancer and not electrocution! I pulled apart his bench lathe as we were selling the house for my mom and in the switch box...he had bypassed the ground yet again! (the lathe is powered by a Jacuzzi pump motor--with Dad cutting out the ground). The switch went into the trash! When the lathe is set up again, it will be wired correctly.

Most towns and cities don't allow "Conduit grounding" or, more properly, a "mechanical ground" requiring, instead, an electrical ground.

For bonding, my town requires the ground to be insulated and green-jacketed. Also it's something like #8 wire--very, very heavy and everything metal is connected to it.

[bhawleyusa]

Do aboveground pool codes differ? I have a oval 33' that is one large sheet of steel connected together at the skimmer. There is a wooden deck surrounding the pool. The 110v pump uses a 3 prong plug into a GFI connected to the main panel thru 4 conductor romex. All pipes and ladders are pvc. Should the pump be bonded to the pool? Should there be a separate ground from the pump to the panel ground?

[CarlD]

As far as I know the AG rules are the same--maybe even more so since more metal is exposed.

[BigTallGuy]

Do aboveground pool codes differ? I have a oval 33' that is one large sheet of steel connected together at the skimmer. There is a wooden deck surrounding the pool. The 110v pump uses a 3 prong plug into a GFI connected to the main panel thru 4 conductor romex. All pipes and ladders are pvc. Should the pump be bonded to the pool? Should there be a separate ground from the pump to the panel ground?

I really don't know how you could effectively bond an Above Ground pool. The theory of bonding one of the dozens of metal pieces found in an AG pool would be the same as a "mechanical ground" or a "conduit ground". Even grounding one spot would probably require sanding down to bare metal and attaching a bonding wire, exposing the area to rust. Owning 5 or 6 different AG pools over the years, and having half of them installed professionally, none of the pool frames themselves were bonded, nor have I ever seen anything in the owner/installation manuals requiring a bonded frame. I suggest you contact your local Building permit dept.

[CarlD]

Perhaps because my AG is a bit unusual, the bonding makes more sense. It's a self-standing steel truss based structure--very heavy. Each long side is a 2.6' wide by 4" high truss 40' long--and weighs in at close to 900#. These, along with the buried cross braces are all bonded. A special clamp, made of brass or bronze (I think the later), attaches the wire to the member being grounded.

[BigTallGuy]

Ben is spot on right regarding electricians:

Just because an electrician drives a truck with lightning bolts and light bulbs painted on the side, doesn’t mean they know anything about swimming pool electrical needs. There are some electricians, both licensed and unlicensed, that will tell you that they are the best thing that ever happened to electricity since the light bulb, that they can wire swimming pools in their sleep, and you don’t want to trust the lives of your children to anyone else.

So what do you do? Who do you trust? How do you go about hiring someone to install or repair your outdoor electrical pool circuit without getting ripped off or ending up with shoddy electrical work?

The answer is simple. You do your homework.

You should have a basic idea of what you need BEFORE you ask a contractor for a bid. A new circuit should include a solid copper wire ground all the way back to the breaker panel, a GFCI in the circuit, and complete proper bonding. You should know how many outlets you want, and how many electrical devices you plan to run on this circuit. If you plan to run a Flat Screen TV, a Refrigerator, an Ice Maker, a Stereo sound system, and/or additional lights, etc. all on your pool circuit, you must plan for them, and for any additional future needs. Remember what Ben said; “Don’t bring electricity into the pool area from outside the pool area”. The key is up-front planning. The MINIMUM size circuit I would ever install for a pool regardless of how short the run or number of devices would be a 12 gauge wire with a 20 amp breaker. You may need a larger size wire and breaker depending upon the length of the circuit and the number of devices on the circuit. If you are repairing an existing circuit, make sure you bring it up to code with a GFCI, as well as proper bonding and grounding.

Once you have a basic plan of your electrical needs, call any of the different agencies such as the BBB or Registry of Contractors, or as I previously stated, the Building Inspection Office or the Power Company in your area to get referrals, then you have to check them out. Make sure your prospective contractor is Licensed, Bonded and Insured. Get references, check their credentials, and question the living daylights out of any prospective contractor by asking simple questions that you have learned here on this Forum BEFORE YOU HIRE THEM. The prospective contractor will get the idea that they are dealing with someone who knows. When you call or talk to anyone regarding your electrical needs, be sure you tell them that it is electrical work for a swimming pool and that you want a Permit.

You don’t have to understand everything about electricity, but simple questions regarding wire sizes, breaker sizes, Bonding and Grounding, GFCI’s etc. are good questions to ask. Answers like, “Don’t worry about the technical side of this; I’ll take care of it”, or “Trust me, I’ve been doing this for years” instead of answering your questions should send up red flags. If you are not satisfied with the answers you get, get another bid. Don’t hire your brother-in-law (unless he is a licensed electrician), or the first guy walking down the street that says he’s an electrician, or necessarily the lowest bidder. Remember, they are all hungry, they all want the work. If you see something that doesn’t look right, stop the Job and ask the question. Never forget that you are the customer and that you’re paying the bill.

Any contractor that tries to talk you out of getting a building permit should be reported to the Building Inspector’s office and not hired. Any contractor, electrical or otherwise that is worth his salt is not afraid of having his work inspected by the City or County Inspector or anyone else. It is also a good idea to be present for the inspection to watch the inspector do his work to keep him on his toes. No curb-side sign offs. Final payment to the contractor comes AFTER the successful Inspection, not before.

Most Building permit offices should have printed building code requirements for various electrical applications that are yours for free or for a couple of dollars. These electrical requirements don’t even have to be for a swimming pool. Kitchens, bathrooms, garages, or any outdoor electrical circuit all have special requirements. I went to a Hardware store once to buy flush mount (canister type) ceiling pot lights for a bathroom shower stall. “Here you go” says the salesman, “see, it says right here on the box, approved for damp locations” he then proceeded to convince me that a shower stall ceiling is “Damp location”, and the lights were fine. I paid $10 apiece for two of them, smiling that I got off so cheap and installed them. Later, I had to remove and replace them with lights for $40 each. Light fixtures for a shower stall must be rated for a WET location not a Damp location. Luckily no one got shocked as I corrected the mistake before the shower stall was completed, and got stuck with the $10 lights. I simply didn’t do my homework and learned a valuable $20 lesson.

[CarlD]

There are awesome electricians out there, smart guys who cut corners, and morons. Believe me, I've had all three in MY house!

The guy who did my pool was awesome, recommended by a builder I know and trust.

The smart corner-cutter came with the kitchen renovator. He enjoyed the challenges of unusual lighting and dimming equipment, but cut corners on the boring stuff (the inspector caught most of it).

Our most recent guy was our GC's back-up electrician, and dumber than dirt. We just installed a similar dimming system to what we did in the kitchen and the moron couldn't figure it out, despite my diagramming it. Since the kitchen system is 11 years old, it ain't like it's new-fangled equipment. He managed to cost me a ruined keypad and dimmer because he couldn't figure out what the fourth wire was for (First wire: Hot. Second wire: Neutral. Third wire: Ground. Fourth wire: Data bus. Connect the data bus to the key pads and the dimmers and VOILA! a programmable system.

But you gotta be able to count to four...The GC finally figured it out for him.

This electrician suggested I move the garage lights from just above the doors to much higher to cast more light. Everything was open and accessible--maybe an hour's work if he gold-bricked. Then he said it would cost $600! I guess I must just look like a sucker--until I said "no". He can't count to four but he can count to 600--if there's a $ in front of it!

I wouldn't trust this guy to put a new plug on a lamp.

[Skioutty]

14. Electrical boxes should not be closer than 12" to the dirt. Ever. No matter what the code allows. When you put electrical boxes in the dirt, or even that close to the dirt, they WILL get wet and dirty. Probably not while there is still a warranty on the work, but soon after. Every SINGLE 'sealed' commercial pool light junction box I've ever opened was full of water. In fact, "sealed" electrical boxes seem to be much better at keeping water in, than at keeping it out.


I'm an electrician for 24 years and have never seen a dry pipe in the ground ever. They will have water in them from plain old condensation.

[PoolDoc]

Interesting, Skioutty.

I'm not an electrician, but I've had that experience as well. However, I've continued to assume that somewhere -- just not where I was -- there were waterproof boxes that worked. Hadn't thought about the condensation aspect, but given the air / dirt temperature differential, over much of the summer, that makes sense.

I'd be interested in your reaction to conduit grounds, and particularly, grounding via EMT and PVC coated metal flex. I have personally come to DESPISE conduit grounds.

Ben

[BigTallGuy]

I have also seen the underground conduits full of water and I have always wondered about installing a "T" into the conduit with the vertical leg left open and pointing down do allow water to drain. I was told that this will also allow any possible ground water to flow in, but it still seems to make sense to me to give the water someplace to drain. I was even going to fill the hole under the "T" with rocks to provide a better escape. I think allowing the water to drain away and risk the water flowing in is better than letting the electrical circuit sit in water for all eternity, but I am curious what a professional Electrician would say to this since I am only an amateur sparktrician.