How much is the TDS increased if Borax is added to 50 ppm

[smallpooldad]

How much is the TDS increased if Borax is added to 50 ppm in a 9000 gal pool?

Looking forward to your replies.

Aloha

[chem geek]

You shouldn't need to worry about TDS. When you add 50 ppm Borates (via Borax) to your pool AND add enough Muriatic Acid to restore the pH, the TDS increases by about 417, but much of this increase is with neutral Boric Acid, B(OH)3, so only an increase of about [EDIT] 139 [END-EDIT] will register on a conductivity meter (mostly as sodium from the Borax and chloride from the acid you need to add to lower the pH since the Borax raises it). So, the added TDS is just salt and Boric Acid, which is nothing to worry about.

If you are using the spreadsheet to calculate CSI and other parameters, you'll notice that the increased TDS barely nudges the index so is nothing to worry about.

Richard

[catnip]

Richard, I've seen several posts that indicate your spreadsheet is available and being used by others on this forum? Is this true? I've searched but can't find a reference / download location. Thanks.

[chem geek]

A couple of items. First, adding 50 ppm of Borates also increases the TA by 6.1 ppm. However, the buffering of pH from Borates is more than would be implied by this small TA increase because most of the Borate "buffer" is in the form of the neutral Boric Acid species that does not get reported in TA. Technically, at normal pool pH, the Borate buffer is more effective at resisting a rise in pH than a lowering of pH while the Carbonate buffer is the opposite, though the Carbonate buffer is closer to being equal in its resistance in both directions. The TA only measures the buffering capability to resist a lowering in pH (i.e. to resist acidic changes) and does not measure any buffering capacity to resist a rise in pH.

As for the spreadsheet, it may be found at the end of the first post in this thread in The China Shop under the heading "Spreadsheet for Detailed Calculations" where there is a link called PoolEquations.zip

This spreadsheet is in The China Shop for a reason. It is very complex, highly technical, and will scare away vampires. Nevertheless, if you ignore the lower part of the spreadsheet where the detailed calculations are performed and ignore all the chemical equations in the descriptions, it might be OK to use. There are no instructions with it and it is not designed for public consumption. My plan was to someday try and distill into simpler though somewhat less accurate formulas some of what is done so that it could be included into Michael's BleachCalc (he already has a lot of it -- though his acid/base calculations are only accurate at a fixed "typical" starting pH and TA) and also into a simpler spreadsheet form for Mac users (since BleachCalc is only for the PC). This is a large task that I have not gotten around to yet.

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chem Geek,

Thank you, and yes you were correct I did have some (maybe lots according to the Chlorine usage) black and mustard algae which the chlorine is eating at an alarming rate.

My credit card is now up to over $50 for Wal-Mart's Ultra Bleach. I keep going back there so often they are beginning to look at me strangely. The plaster is beginning to look like the day it was put in, although the pool is still cloudy. Maintaing the level at 40 ppm. Did have to use a stainless steel brush to break it up as the nylon did not work; lost about 10 lbs scrubbing my little pool in full sun, would hate to do this to a larger pool.

Will let you know the full story once it is over; summize several dozen Ulta Bleach bottles more!

Aloha

[chem geek]

Thank you, and yes you were correct I did have some (maybe lots according to the Chlorine usage) black and mustard algae which the chlorine is eating at an alarming rate.

Well, keep at it. Remember, patience, patience, patience. Also remember that the chlorine loss during the day isn't the thing to look at since that's due to sunlight. It's the overnight loss that is key -- and of course seeing how your pool clears up. The cloudiness will go away as your filter removes what was in the pool. You might need to clean your filter (backwash if sand or DE -- spray clean if cartridge) if you had lots of this algae in the pool (you can monitor your filter pressure to see if it has gone up due to the filter capturing this algae).

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Well it has been a whole month since borates were added to 70 ppm.

Here are the results:

The pool is very clear.
No algae but then I shocked the living daylights out of it.
pH increases slowly rising from 7.4 to 7.6 every 4th to 5th day, compared to daily or at best every second day.
Chlorine usage has dropped by 1/3rd, it is maintained at 6 on the high end, to 4 on the low.
Adding the "Yellow Stuff" has helped remove the yellowish stains, albeit very slowly. Will add as directed every 60 days. This it seems is a long slow process.

Any results Chemgeek on your trial with "Jack's stuff", reference post

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=2771 ?

So borates definetly help with clarity, lower muriatic acid usage, and lower chlorine usage. Walmart has downgraded my Platinum status to Peasant, as I now no longer shop there as often. But my wallet is a lot happier.

Hope this helps.

Aloha and thank you all for your kind help.

[chem geek]

Any results Chemgeek on your trial with "Jack's stuff", reference post

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=2771 ?

Neither of the two places that Jack's told me would have their stuff truly carried Jack's Magic. So I either have to order directly from Jack's or just use what I believe he is using which is an oxidizer (probably sodium perborate, but I'd rather use potassium monopersulfate) followed by a dry acid (probably sodium bisulfate). The weather is getting too cold to swim now so unless we have another warm spell (doubtful) I'll probably wait until spring before doing anything about this.

For now, I'm just going to measure my CYA and see how it does over the winter (to see if I get the same drop as others report -- I'll measure my calcium as a proxy for dilution rates).

And congratulations on the success using the borates. It would appear that it does take over a lot of the algaecidal usage away from chlorine while also acting as an additional pH buffer. I plan to add salt and borates to my pool in the spring.

Richard

[chem geek]

Adding the "Yellow Stuff" has helped remove the yellowish stains, albeit very slowly. Will add as directed every 60 days. This it seems is a long slow process.

Jack's Magic "Yellow Stuff" is 98% Sodium Bromide (see this link or look on the bottle for verification). Adding bromide to chlorine pool is a bad thing since once your pool is a bromide pool, it stays a bromide pool (unless you shock with chlorine repeatedly in sunlight). What you have been doing by adding "Yellow Stuff" is replacing chlorine in your pool with bromine just as you did earlier with "Yellow Treat".

Chlorine converts bromide to bromine, but uses up chlorine in the process:

HOCl + Br- --> HOBr + Cl-

Unfortunately, bromine is not as good an oxidizer nor disinfectant as chlorine which is part of the reason the above reaction occurs in the first place. When the bromine then disinfects or possibly oxidizes something, it does the following:

3HOBr + 2NH3 --> N2(g) + 3H+ + 3Br- + 3H2O

but then the bromide uses up chlorine as shown before.

The only plus side to having the bromine is that it will not break down in sunlight the way that chlorine would (even with CYA it breaks down, but more slowly) and it doesn't outgas as quickly which is why it is often used in hot tubs. It theoretically kills yellow/mustard algae, hence "yellow" in the product name, but chlorine shocking and borates kill algae too.

Read this post from Ben for more info (the same link Evan provided earlier). Apparently, repeated shocking of your pool with chlorine in the sunlight may remove your bromine. The "Yellow Stuff" is an algicide, NOT a stain remover, but your Borates and PolyQuat would do a much better job at preventing and killing algae. Either the stains are fading on their own or the oxidizing of bromine and chlorine are fading them (in which case simple shocking of chlorine should do the trick over time) or the Borates are fading them (killing algae). If you put a Trichlor tablet on the stain and it fades, then it was likely algae; otherwise if it's a metal stain, then you need to use one of Jack's Magic other products for stain removal, but not The Yellow Stuff.

If some algae stain doesn't come off with chlorine shock plus possibly brushing, you can try using PolyQuat. At least with PolyQuat algicide, it won't interfere quite as much with the chlorine though we have found that it does consume some of the chlorine but apprently converts to a byproduct that still inhibits or kills algae (see this post for more info).

If I were you, I would just stick with the Borates and forget adding other chemicals to your pool such as the "Yellow" stuff. If the stains continue to fade, then you just need patience. If they don't, then try PolyQuat first and then the Jack's Magic stain removal products (but NOT "The Yellow Stuff").

Richard

[smallpooldad]

Chemgeek,

Thank you for the quick reply.

I think I am going a litlle "Cuckoo" as we say in the UK, I actually added Universal Chemical's Stain Treatment which I believe is 100% Oxalic Acid not Yellow Treat. This does seem to be helping along with the chlorine and borates.

If you move to Hawaii then you can do your pool chemical testing year round!

Aloha