Doughboy Liner Damaged by Chlorine?

[PoolDoc]

Could be. But either way, it doesn't affect my evaluation (that EITHER the liner was subjected to high FC + low CYA OR that the liner was made from a low-grade, possibly Chinese, liner sheet material.)

This is a VERY frustrating situation, since the liner sheeting material is not necessarily the same, even on "identical" liners (same liner company, same print, same specs) are not necessarily made from the same vinyl sheeting. In a conversation I had with a Canadian General product engineer some years ago (http://www.cgtower.com/), he told me that even he couldn't always tell 'good' sheeting from the junk, without lab testing.

This means that there's NO way for the pool dealer or pool consumer to tell. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to test or confirm liner durability in advance! It's a product tailor made for Chinese market sharks, since they can cut quality without getting caught for years.

[CarlD]

Could be. But either way, it doesn't affect my evaluation (that EITHER the liner was subjected to high FC + low CYA OR that the liner was made from a low-grade, possibly Chinese, liner sheet material.).

Nor should it.

[CarlD]

rajung:
You are not nuts.

Since this is a vinyl pool and your CH is fairly low, while your T/A is high, I don't think you have a big risk. The two risks of high T/A are: pH continually trending up; and of cloudy water and scaling if CH gets high as well (400ppm or greater).

You MAY want to go through our T/A lowering process, but never let your pH go below 7.0, and don't pour a giant slug of Muriatic Acid into your pool as that can damage your liner. Instead, either mix M-A into a 5 gallon bucket of pool water and add THAT to the return stream (always add the acid to the water, not the other way around), or you can add M-A directly into the return stream so it cannot settle. In either case, I wouldn't add more than 1 cup at a time and work pH down slowly, which brings T/A down with it.

You can use dry acid instead, but I STILL like to dissolve it in 5 gallons of pool water first.

Then aerate your water with splashing kids, a sprayer, etc, to raise pH without raising T/A. Lower pH again as above to bring T/A down again, and aerate to raise pH. Repeat to "ratchet" T/A down without putting your pool in danger by too low pH, or by a slug of M-A settling on the liner and weakening it.

[rajung]

thanks
when the liner was replaced, my TA was in the mid 300 range.
I slowly added the acid in front of the return stream,usually no more than 32oz. at a time,around 4 hours apart if I remember without looking at my log sheet I now have
Then I would brush the area where added and use 2 pond pumps attached to the steps and shoot a jet stream across the pool surface for what seemed like a week, never letting the ph drop below7.2.
My return diffuser just doesn't seem to do enough alone and I cant turn it up to the surface due to a light in it without getting under the deck and loosening the whole unit to turn it.
took about 7-10 days to go from 380 to 110 and somewhere around 5 gal of acid? on 13,700 gal pool.
I guess I will slowly go back to work on the TA issue,and continue with the chemical balance I have been doing lately and assume my 50ppm stabilizer with 6ppm FC is fine and adding bleach or 12.5% chlorinator in front of return stream.The PH always for the most part stays at 7.4,maybe 7.2 after 3 weeks with totally clear water.
I do brush the pool once week but rarely vacuum,every 2 weeks,no real trees, just fake palms.
So I guess I am getting ripped and have no recourse after doing more than anyone else other than the folks on this board and others like this one that do proper down to the bones maintenance.And if I go back to my very first post on this, what I thought would happen actually did
thanks all for your suggestions and input.

[PoolDoc]

1. Any solid chlorine or acid compound that comes into DIRECT contact with the liner can damage it.

2. Question: were the liner and the filter Doughboy OEM products?

[CarlD]

rajung:

It sure sounds like you did very little, if anything, wrong. I know it's depressing but you STILL want to have a pool so you have to do it.

FantaSea sold me their "Space Age Lifetime Walls". What I didn't know was it was the "lifetime" would turn out to be 12 years--a dog's life. Even with discounts the regular water walls would cost me $2000 with shipping. I'm expecting it to cost me less than half that, but with a lot of extra sweat equity. I'm using underlayment grade P/T 3/4" ply, priming it with Kilz premium outdoor primer, then I'm going to let it sit for 3 months before I try painting it. The inside, facing the liner, will be covered with wall foam to protect the liner, but I wasn't planning on painting over the primer. The outside will be painted.

They did give me a deep discount on a discontinued pattern for the liner in heavier gauge.

[rajung]

Yes
the sand filter is a Aquaview sold by them " Doughboy" and the liner is the thickest mil liner they have, made for stretching into a deep end type of pool.
So between Doughcrap and Biocrap, you don't always get what you pay for.

[PoolDoc]

Rajung;

I'm not sure what happened. Obviously, you've had some bad luck. Every company occasionally ships some bad product, and that may have happened to you.

But unlike BioLab, Doughboy has a long and well established reputation for quality -- if pricey -- product. And, contrary to my suspicions, I was able to confirm today that Doughboy's equipment is almost exclusively US made. So, my China info doesn't apply.

I'm going to have to mark these problems as indeterminate in cause; I'm not willing to assign Doughboy the "Doughcrap" label based on a single unfortunate episode.

Again, I'm sorry that you've had bad luck; I wish I knew why.

Sincerely,

Ben Powell

[rajung]

Thanks for the info on where made,I was starting to get a little worried and was going to make a phone call to find out.
Only thing I can think of,if the over chlorination was in fact the problem,or just a quick way out for them since the liner was bleached out around the return fitting about 2-3 inches after a combined 8 useage months, they assumed that and went no further.
The pool store is one of only 2 Authorized dealers in the state that I can find,and with Doughboy being almost impossible to buy parts or anything else without going through a dealer,I thought they knew what products are fine with Doughboy liner.
A little background on what the salesman instructed me to do when he was on site after install on Aug 2012.
I was instructed ,after he added stabilizer,to add 2 bioguard silk sticks to the skimmer each week,add proper amount of Algea preventer each week and shock pool with a pound of the bioguard product ea. week.And use the test strips I was provided.
No problem, new pool owner,I got this
So Aug -Sept.2012 did all that,then winterized and covered filter,heater and pool.Was told filter could stay outdoors.
April 2013 -Sept 2013,repeated the above process every week,except bring sand filter into the garage in the fall.I did have my Taylor kit in July and it was testing stabilizer level around 90-100 ppm by then thanks to the silk sticks so I was keeping FC around 8 or 9ppm
Nov- through the winter,found the pool calc.and a FC to CYA level chart and other reference items.
March 2014,after winter thaw, major seam leak.
Maybe what I was sold and told to do,in fact done me in.
Looking back at the silk sticks, what an un regulated way to sanitize,ea day it could go anywhere.
Also, was told by the end of week most of the sticks would be dissolved, and if not some may still be left but just toss 2 more in there.
So, I guess ea week I was pounding the pool into the ground and thinking I was on top of my maintenence.
Pool was only used by 2 of us a couple times a week most of the time,ocassional pool party.
I have been useing the bleach,8% and chlorine 12%-Muriatic acid-Borax since new liner install, never needed baking soda since my tap water is 380 TA.
In your opinion,would TA at 130ppm and CYA at 50 with FC at 6 be fine?
or should I go lower on both?
Just a little nervouse on what next spring will be like.
Also ,I was adding the bleach/chlorine into the skimmer for a couple months this year but got worried about the possible liner fade at the return, so I started to add that in front of the return water stream.
Thanks again for all the help.

[CarlD]

So they get US-made sheet vinyl?
I think it's pretty cool you could confirm that, Ben. How did you do it?

As I pointed out, FantaSea, also a very good company, would only offer me a limited discount on their so-called "lifetime warranty" water walls, so I guess that's the standard, the best you get in the industry.

When you "winterized" your pool, did you drain your filter? I suspect your filter split from ice damage. I've left my filter outside every winter with no problem for the last 11 winters--and we get cold ones in NJ! I take off the multi valve and store THAT in the basement, remove and store the drain cap, and tip the filter ever so slightly so that the drain is now the absolute lowest point. After it drains for a day, I then cover it with a Contractor's trash bag and use duct tape to make the bag tight. But I never let the duct tape touch the filter, just the bag. So there's not enough water in the tank to form enough ice to damage it.