Rash

[PoolDoc]

I actually have installed and managed a UV / H2O2 system on an indoor pool . . . but it was a $400,000 gallon pool on a $3,000,000 house, with a more or less unlimited budget. You don't want one.

We've got extensive discussions of this topic here, but briefly (and bluntly):

1. There's no such thing as a chlorine allergy. (If there were, there would have to be warning labels on restaurant iced water!)

2. There can be allergies, but more often irritations (dermatitis) from chlorinated compounds, including chlorinated 'people goo' (urine, creatnine, etc.)

3. Small pool (or spas), or indoor pools, or pools with auto-covers are most prone to accumulating these compounds at levels that cause problems.

4. Any pool that is (a) used and (b) chlorinated inconsistently may develop irritating levels of some of these compounds. If your pool ever smells 'like chlorine' . . . then consistent chlorination may be the solution.

4. Other irritants that cause reactions include:
+ Non-chlorine shocks
+ Foamy algaecides
+ Solid forms of bromine
+ Mustard algae treatments
+ . . . that's all that comes to mind at the moment.

As you can see, a diagnostic 'case history' on your pool would likely ID the source of the problem.

. . . membership updated.

[jonijean211]

OK, so it sounds like the hydrogen peroxide thing is out.

Thinking this was a chlorine problem, we were trying to keep the chlorine levels at the minimum that was still ok. On top of that, we were out of town for several days so levels went to nil. Numbers today are:

CYA: 92
Tot chlorine: 0.4
Free chlorine: 0
pH: 8.4

This according to pool store testing.

Our pools holds 7500 gals and they recommended: add 6.5 lbs Balance Pak 100; add 2.25 lbs of Lo N Slo; and, add 1 bag of burn out3.

One other note - this rash happens in every pool not just ours. Any recommendations?

[PoolDoc]

Just from your numbers, I can tell you that you are running a totally irritating pool. I can also tell you that your pool guys are trying to make it WORSE by adding, in order, baking soda (raises pH), sodium bisulfate (lowers pH) and lithium hypochlorite mix (adds various psychotropic agents to your water)

BioGuard is the WORST at screwing up pools very expensively, using their ALEX computer system.

If you want to resolve this, you're probably going to need to go step by step -- isolating irritants and allergens is tedious, nit-picky work. My whole family suffers from seasonal allergies, and my older son was hospitalized multiple times with allergically triggered asthma. I personally gave him allergy shots -- with epinephrine ampules laid out and ready to inject -- for 5 years. So I *do* have knowledge of this, beyond my pool background.

Most people who come here want a quick fix. And many already 'know' what they want the answer to be. I've gone round and round with some of those more times than I cared to over the years -- only to have them bail when they didn't get the answer they liked.

So here's the bottom line: I will help you, but ONLY so long as you stay on the straight and narrow path of evidence and logic based analysis and testing. If you are seeing an MD allergist, I'd be glad to include him/her in the conversation -- but it will be a conversation. Doctors know a lot, but not all of what they 'know' is true. I've had to correct physicians multiple times over the years -- including a serious mis-prescription of a drug for my older son (we bailed on that pediatrician, at that point!).

What I will NOT do is go back and forth with arguments based on reports in the popular media. Scientific journal articles are fine -- newspaper, TV and blog articles, not so much. If they point to a journal article, we can look at THAT article. But I'm sick and tired of trying to help people who have made a 'faith commitment' to the idea that chlorine is bad, and take it as gospel, no matter what the evidence is.

So, if you're still with me, here are starting steps.

1. Get a K2006 testkit. There's NO way to do this so long as you are trusting bogus BioGuard testing. http://pool9.net/tk/ And, you'll need accurate testing no matter what direction you pursue.

2. Do a tub test: 30 minutes in a tub with dichlor at 10 ppm FC . If you respond with irritation to that, it's EITHER chlorine OR something your water company is using. (Monochloramine!)

3. Assuming you pass the tub test, you'll need to drain and refill your pool. Since you've been using Bioguard products, you've almost certainly added some known irritants to the water, such as non-chlorine shock, which contains persulfates See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18413112 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10227340

4. Then, on refill, we'll start with the simplest possible treatment: borax (to raise pH), muriatic acid (to lower pH), and dichlor (to add chlorine & stabilizer), and minimal use.

5. From there we can proceed to more normal use. At that point, you have to deal with the fact that many swimmers pee in the pool, and urine does NOT react gracefully with chlorine. If problems occur once the bather load is stepped up, there are ways to resolve them, but you'll at least know what's going on. The simplest way is to minimize the amount of urine and lotions that enter the pool.

6. and so on . . .

I'm more than happy for you to run that procedure past your allergist for confirmation or correction.

[jonijean211]

Honestly, I have given up on dermatologists and allergists at this point because they were not helping at all so that is not a concern. I am willing to go with your suggestions because you seem to know what you are talking about. I'll order the test kit. My only concern is emptying the pool. This is an above ground pool so emptying is a major undertaking with risk of collapse. Also, our residential area does not make emptying that much water an easy undertaking that will go unnoticed by neighbors. Is there an option to emptying the pool that will work? Also, when you say to use the dichlor for a tub test, is dichlor a common chemical I can purchase at pool store or online? Thanks

[Watermom]

Many places sell Dichlor but you only want unblended dichlor and that is getting hard to find. Sam's Club and Amazon both have unblended dichlor. You can find the links for both types in the following thread:> http://pool9.net/ssr/

[PoolDoc]

No, there's no option other then emptying.

There are plenty of pool treatments that leave long term residue. There is NO way to remove those from the equation, other than to start with new water. There is a sneaky way to drain, however: just do it at night, during rainy weather! And before you drain, you'll need to fill our the pool equipment info. If you have an AG pool, or a in-ground concrete pool, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you have a fiberglass IG pool, you'll have to be careful. If you have a vinyl liner IG pool . . . it may be a problem.

BUT . . .

Get the test kit, and then do the tub test, first! If you DO react to fresh water in the tub, then we need to investigate THAT, before you drain.

For a small amount of un-diluted dichlor, your best bet is probably Amazon. There are links in the Super Simple recipe page: http://pool9.net/ssr/. If you need dichlor for your pool, then Sams Club is almost always the best bet if you have access. Most of the dichlor sold by Walmart and Costco is diluted and blended . . . and some of the dilutants are potential problems.

Good luck!

[jonijean211]

I finally did the tub test (many reasons it took so long but mostly wanted skin to be completely clear first) and . . . I've got the itchy rash again. Any next steps you can suggest? Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Are you saying that:
1. You have not used the pool;
2. you waited till your skin was clear;
3. you did a bleach bath (what concentration?);
4. and now have itchy red skin?

If your answer to ALL the questions above is "Yes", the next step is to
1. Wait till your skin clears,
2. Repeat the bath EXACTLY as before, but with NO added chlorine.

Just to explain -- we have to find a "no irritation immersion' starting point. Because fresh water is intrinsically somewhat irritating (eye saline is not), and because tap water sometimes contains monochloramine to which some people are sensitive, we have to rule out those out.

It's possible that your skin is dried enough by a bath, but not by a shower, to cause problems. So please duplicate conditions exactly (time, temperature, depth of tub) minus the bleach when you repeat.

Once you find a 'safe point', we can add chemicals one at a time, till we've got enough to make up a treatment system.

It would REALLY help if you had a K2006 testkit. (http://pool9.net/tk/. We'll also need measured dimension on your tub at the fill point, in order to calculate volume, so I can calculate test doses.

Regarding your pool, you need to maintain the pH between 7 and 8, and your chlorine at 10% of your CYA level (9 ppm . . . if the store test is accurate -- but it's probably not).