*SIGH* Looks Like I Have da' Mustard

[PoolDoc]

Actually, 500 ppb is not bad; the water here has over 2,000 ppb!

If you'd like, go ahead and pick one of the removers (Orenda PR-10000 or the Kem-Tek product), purchase it, and take the phosphates below 125 ppb. BUT, keep your chlorine up. Low phosphates weaken, but do not kill algae.

-- I assume you aren't using any products that would ADD phosphates, like stain removers, United Chemicals products, etc.? --

How's your pool looking, or more specifically, how is the mustard algae looking?

[Tom.B]

Good assumption... No other products being used. I also just ordered four quarts of the Kem-Tek to give it a whirl to lower my PO4. Looking forward to not spending $50 per bottle on the stuff at the pool store.

The pool looks fabulous currently. The water has cleared up quite a bit and is what I would consider crystal clear. The algae seems to still be there, but is less than before (unscientific). It still appears at the seams of the liner and on the steps, however, we are keeping it brushed every-other day or so. I just wen out and had to backwash the sand filter. The pressure had jumped and there was no visible output from the jets. When I did, the water was very green coming out of the waste hose. Normal?

I have also raised the FC level up to 19ppm as of the test just a few minutes ago. I finally got to Wally World and bought 12 gallons of their 8% Great Googly-Moogly Bleach. Unfortunately, someone beat me to the 20 Mule. Oh well, live to fight another day.

I actually have another question(s): What is the upper limit for chlorine with a vinyl liner? With a CYA of 55-60, I hesitate to run to the +SHOCK+ FC level to 30 as noted in Best Guess, much less 70ppm! Where should I raise it to and how long should I leave it there to kill off the algae?

[PoolDoc]

I just went out and had to backwash the sand filter. The pressure had jumped and there was no visible output from the jets. When I did, the water was very green coming out of the waste hose. Normal?

No, that's an indicator of algae. If you can, put a few tabs in the skimmer, which will raise the chlorine level in the filter, without raising it so much in the pool.

I actually have another question(s): What is the upper limit for chlorine with a vinyl liner? With a CYA of 55-60, I hesitate to run to the +SHOCK+ FC level to 30 as noted in Best Guess, much less 70ppm! Where should I raise it to and how long should I leave it there to kill off the algae?

Unfortunately, that's a question without a good answer. It varies from liner to liner, even within brands. I've been told that dark blue tends to be the color most susceptible to bleach-out, because of the pigments or dyes usually used.

Having a liner you're concerned about is an even better reason to try the phosphates. I probably should let you know I have entirely selfish reasons for wanting you to try phosphate removal: this is a perfect test case, for VALID use of phosphate removers:
=> You clearly have chlorine resistant algae -- the backwash is almost absolute confirmation of that.
=> You have a legit concern about 'mustard shock levels' of chlorine.
=> You're behaving predictably from our point of view and seem to testing reliably . . . so the 'data' we get from you is likely to be meaningful..

But . . . I really do hope it works. It would provide us a very useful additional tool with which to help people.

[Tom.B]

No, that's an indicator of algae. If you can, put a few tabs in the skimmer, which will raise the chlorine level in the filter, without raising it so much in the pool.

A few... Meaning three at once? Isn't that going to shoot my CYA thru the roof? With it currently at 60, I can keep a SHOCK level FC without breaking the bank or killing the liner.

Having a liner you're concerned about is an even better reason to try the phosphates. I probably should let you know I have entirely selfish reasons for wanting you to try phosphate removal: this is a perfect test case, for VALID use of phosphate removers:
=> You clearly have chlorine resistant algae -- the backwash is almost absolute confirmation of that.
=> You have a legit concern about 'mustard shock levels' of chlorine.
=> You're behaving predictably from our point of view and seem to testing reliably . . . so the 'data' we get from you is likely to be meaningful..

But . . . I really do hope it works. It would provide us a very useful additional tool with which to help people.

Why does this make me feel dirty? :-D

It the backwash REALLY a clear indicator? Wouldn't the regular brushing cause the algae to get caught in the filter and clog it up? Moreover, at the apparent "concentration" of it as it left the waste hose just have it be green anyway?

Chlorine level has only been high for two days. Define "chlorine resistant". Are we saying that removal is impossible with SHOCK levels of chlorine, and that because it's a liner pool, +SHOCK+ level are unrealistic and/or unobtainable?

I will have my phosphate remover in a few days, what is the plan? To get them to zero? Problematic only because of the municipal supply I have. In fact, evaporation this week already has me needing to add more in the next few days. **EDIT** Amazon just emailed and the expected date I will get the PO4 remover is TOMORROW! YAY!

I hope we can figure this out. How's your track record? ;-)

[PoolDoc]

1. Several tabs will only add 5 - 10 ppm CYA. Overall that effect is small compared to the algae issue.

2. There are other possible causes of 'mustard' looking surfaces, but combined with green backwash, it's a pretty positive indication of actual algae. It ALSO can indicate an incipient algae bloom.

3. The problem with low PO4 is that it has to be maintained. Unless you have a bad leak, it shouldn't be that hard with only 500 ppb in the fill water. But it's an ongoing issue, which is the reason pool stores have loved it. Now that more generic forms of PO4 remover are available, and profit margins are declining, their enthusiasm will wane.

4. The issue of really high chlorine levels with liners is unresolved. Many people have no problem. The high levels of CYA associated with high levels of chlorine reduced the bleaching effect. We *suspect* that it will only rarely be a problem, but we don't know that, and testing it is troublesome.

5. Dunno if you were serious or not about "feeling dirty". Personally, I've always liked solving problems, especially when the solution could help other people.

6. My track record is not bad: pretty much every idea* that's part of the overall "BBB method" was my idea. Chem_Geek as validated those ideas analytically in a way I couldn't, and has refined the details. And a bazillion pool owners here and at TFP have tested and proven them empirically. But the ideas were mine.

But . . . I tend to solve problems iteratively: try something, look at the results, make changes, and try again. It took me 9-10 complete iterations to finally come up with a commercial chemical feed system that could be maintained with periodic care on reasonable intervals, rather than unscheduled emergency 'intervention'. (I *still* need to market that!)

Of course, if you're present during the iterations . . . it can get a bit frustrating. I try to remind myself, when speaking to owners and managers, not to respond to failures that expose a weakness with, "Wow that's great! I know how to fix that!". Their enthusiasm for those 'successful failures' tends to be a hair less than mine.


* I should add, I didn't come up with this stuff from nothing. A lot of it was field experience, but I talked to a LOT of people from whom I learned a LOT:. senior engineer Bud Frederick at PacFab (now, Pentair); Dave Knoop and others at HTH/Arch; an owner/chemist at a local regional chemical company (Farm and Industrial) supplying the carpet businesses in Dalton, GA; Jock Hamilton, at United Chemical, who finally refused to talk to me, because he kept 'leaking' bits he didn't mean to say; a number of near-retirement chemists and engineers at various large chemical companies, including Monsanto, fabric designers at Speedo, hair treatment chemists at Clairol, and more.

Of course, I had to sort through some mis-direction from from some very astute and smart people at BioLab and Great Lakes Bio.

So a lot of what I did was something I seem to have a gift for: not necessarily discovering anything that's actually new, but gathering and putting together bits of info from here, there and yon, into a newly functional whole. For a long time, I couldn't understand why no one else had seen these things: after all, the data was there. But apparently I combined several characteristics into a statistically novel result: that 'gift'; plus being endlessly curious about almost everything, and finally being enough of a 'jerk' that I was unbothered by publishing stuff that made many people, including some very nice people, look utterly stupid. It's not a socially attractive mix: I'm very, very blessed that my wife and sons still like me.

[Tom.B]

Nice bio! Glad you have a positive attitude towards all this. I guess with the onset of the internet, a pool related forum was just a natural progression. Thanks for all this... just in case I forget to tell you later)

Okay, so... I added another 500-ish gallons of municipal water this morning, dropped two more 3" trichlor tabs in the skimmer that bring the total to 2 1/2 of them in there now, and just for kicks, added a 1# bag of cal-hypo (Powder Plus) because of it's high chlorine content (and just because I still have some lying around). I haven't used it in a couple of weeks, so I thought it would be fine. I'd like to get rid of the last few bags I have, so I will spread out the usage to the times I add water to the pool as not to boost the CA levels (SEE!!! I HAVE learned some stuff here!).

And yes... I WAS joking about the feeling dirty part. I feel I am now just another lab rat of yours... and I am TOTALLY fine with that! But that was the joke behind the "I feel dirty" comment. You'll get used to my sarcastic humor sooner-or-later... I hope. :-D

Any tips or tricks to using the Kem-Tek Phosphate remover?

[PoolDoc]

Any tips or tricks to using the Kem-Tek Phosphate remover?

Not that I can tell.