Whole pool without power

[Jodester]

Sounds like you're thinking that the reason for the breakers flipping is the CompuPool. Is that why you are suggesting wiring the pump to the breaker without it? You think the pump will run as long as the CompuPool is not connected to it?

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By the way -- I should add that besides the battery back-up box for the personal computer in our office clicking a little (even though it is on a separate circuit), nothing else inside our house seems to be affected.

[PoolDoc]

Honestly, I didn't read your entire post -- I thought it involved troubleshooting a Compupool controller, and dumped a fairly standard answer on you. Sorry.

What I told you about the bleach is still correct, however.

If your breaker is tripping, then you need to troubleshoot the circuit. I've seen local distribution systems have voltage problems -- for 5 years, we lived through that ourselves, and bought incandescent bulbs like candy! I never really got any help either. If it was JUST your pump, then I'd suspect inadequate wiring, but if you are hearing your computer UPS clicking in and out, that's pretty strong evidence of voltage problems . . . which can really kill electronics.

The problem I ran into, was that the voltage was OK every time I had it checked. So, you really have to have a voltage recorder. Last time I looked (5+ years ago) that was prohibitively expensive. But apparently, you can get a very function set up for under $250. That's still some moola, but I'll probably order one + software, to trouble shoot some problems at a customer pool. I've put the links below.

If you have a VS pump, I think I'd go ahead and get the voltage recorder -- if you lose the electronics on the pump, you're pretty much going to have to buy a whole new pump. Electromechanical pumps are MUCH more durable, and if that's what you have, I'd be tempted to bypass all the other gear, and ONLY connect the pump to your breaker.

BTW, breakers can fail 'trippy'. Given that a replacement is probably under $30, it might be worth swapping in a new one, just to see if that's the problem. I don't know how to test them otherwise.

BUT, let me do my regular pool + electrical warning:

Electricity + pools mix FATALLY. If you don't understand what I've said or don't know how to use a digital voltmeter or have never wired a circuit or replaced a breaker before . . . CALL AN ELECTRICIAN. Making electrical mistakes with pools puts you and your family at risk of DYING!

==================================================

Supco LCV LOGiT Current and Voltage Data Logger
Supco LLSU LOGiT Software and USB interface

I'm pretty sure you have to buy the software separately, but you might want to call and ask: http://www.supco.com/Contact%20Us.htm

[robbym70]

And...not your brother's cousin who does side jobs. Make sure they are licensed and do regular pool work and it wouldn't hurt to get some references as well. Doc is right...one mistake here could be deadly. I work for NFPA. The people who publish the National Electrical Code.

[PoolDoc]

Make sure they are licensed and do regular pool work and it wouldn't hurt to get some references as well.

I can't speak for all areas of the country, but in my area, following your instructions can be difficult: it's hard enough to get an electrician who is licensed, and WILLING to do pool work. Experience seems to teach many electricians that pool work can be a PITA, is not particularly profitable, and should be avoided.

I don't really KNOW why this is, but I can guess at some possible reasons:

1. Bonding is NOT the same as grounding, but most electrician (as opposed to electrical engineers) don't really grasp the concept of a Faraday cage. As far as I know, pools are the only enforcement area that requires them to understand and apply bonding.

2. Many 'outdoor' or 'all-weather' electrical components, are neither all-weather nor outdoor, in any durable sense. Usually, such components (such as an outdoor receptacle cover) are installed in locations so rarely used that no one notices their failure. But on pools, this is not the case. I've seen electricians baffled, more than once, when "outdoor" components (that were NEVER engineered to meet their labeling) failed in pool environments.

3. Electronically controlled electrical circuits, devices and motors seem to be common in two environments: industrial use, and pools. Industrial electricians are a different breed, and would laugh hysterically at the 'mickey-mouse' design of pool electronic control systems. Residential electricians don't know to laugh, but instead learn the hard way that such systems are a constant PITA and warranty hassle.

4. The majority of residential electricians I've encountered are really 'wire-pullers' and 'connection-makers' and have been baffled by a request to use a DPDT timer to control a dual winding pump (ie, 2 speed pump), much less anything more complex. Industrial electricians have no problems there, nor do some commercial electricians, BUT they are not usually called to pool sites.

5. The most recent NEC in my possession is ~20 years old. I'm aware of some updates, but have not gone through a complete code. However, there *were* numerous aspects of NEC permitted methods that I've seen consistently fail in pool or other hard use wet environments. Two that I recall immediately are:
=> conduit grounds (I *HATE* those things -- was nearly killed by one!)
=> bonding via the rebar mat rather than a continuous bare wire loop. (This is incredibly dumb: essentially, it delegates to the concrete guys the responsibility of establishing the electrical integrity of the mat in a way that guarantees it will survive despite stupid concrete finishing practices, lazy wire-tying, and corrosion. Again, I KNOW that it often does not! The repeated stories in the pool trade press of corrosion cause by measurable transient currents across pool components establishes that it does not -- a full #6 or #8 bare wire loop, individually tied to each metal element with a bare wire jumper, having a milli-ohm point-to-loop resistance would make such transients, at the levels seen, impossible.)

6. At least in commercial environments, bonding vs. grounding can create some inadvertent hazards. When I last encountered pool electrical inspection (10+ years ago), it was apparently still common to discourage direct grounding of the bond loops (the Faraday cage). This tends to happen incidentally, when residential local panels are bonded, but I've never seen a commercial supply in a pump room bonded. Coupled with allowed conduit grounds on pumps, this tends to result in pumps that are BONDED, but not grounded.

For someone switching on a commercial pump, while having a hand on the pump, this creates a very real potential hazard. You might think that's unlikely, but trust me, many pumps and panels are so badly placed that it's an everyday occurrence. I've personally only received very mild shocks (tingles) this way, but that's still a VERY bad thing.

7. EVERYBODY -- electricians, code authorities, maintenance staff, pool guys -- seem to forget that the only class of electrical power users who are as wet and exposed as pool power users are homeowners coming out of the bathroom. But even they aren't nearly as wet and exposed as pool staff:
=> a sopping wet bathroom floor usually means somebody is about to get yelled at, but a sopping pump room floor is almost the rule.
=> wet, dripping homeowners do not stand in a puddle, repeatedly switching 240V circuits on and off - but pool staff and pool owners do.
=> etc.

8. GFCI receptacles and circuit breakers do not always fail safe; I have seem them fail UN-safe more than once, in a pool environment.


.................................


Writing this, has made me recall more of the shocks I've gotten over the years than I've ever done before, at one time. I'm surprised I'm still alive!

[robbym70]

I can't speak for all areas of the country, but in my area, following your instructions can be difficult: it's hard enough to get an electrician who is licensed, and WILLING to do pool work. Experience seems to teach many electricians that pool work can be a PITA, is not particularly profitable, and should be avoided.

I don't really KNOW why this is, but I can guess at some possible reasons:

1. Bonding is NOT the same as grounding, but most electrician (as opposed to electrical engineers) don't really grasp the concept of a Faraday cage. As far as I know, pools are the only enforcement area that requires them to understand and apply bonding.

2. Many 'outdoor' or 'all-weather' electrical components, are neither all-weather nor outdoor, in any durable sense. Usually, such components (such as an outdoor receptacle cover) are installed in locations so rarely used that no one notices their failure. But on pools, this is not the case. I've seen electricians baffled, more than once, when "outdoor" components (that were NEVER engineered to meet their labeling) failed in pool environments.

3. Electronically controlled electrical circuits, devices and motors seem to be common in two environments: industrial use, and pools. Industrial electricians are a different breed, and would laugh hysterically at the 'mickey-mouse' design of pool electronic control systems. Residential electricians don't know to laugh, but instead learn the hard way that such systems are a constant PITA and warranty hassle.

4. The majority of residential electricians I've encountered are really 'wire-pullers' and 'connection-makers' and have been baffled by a request to use a DPDT timer to control a dual winding pump (ie, 2 speed pump), much less anything more complex. Industrial electricians have no problems there, nor do some commercial electricians, BUT they are not usually called to pool sites.

5. The most recent NEC in my possession is ~20 years old. I'm aware of some updates, but have not gone through a complete code. However, there *were* numerous aspects of NEC permitted methods that I've seen consistently fail in pool or other hard use wet environments. Two that I recall immediately are:
=> conduit grounds (I *HATE* those things -- was nearly killed by one!)
=> bonding via the rebar mat rather than a continuous bare wire loop. (This is incredibly dumb: essentially, it delegates to the concrete guys the responsibility of establishing the electrical integrity of the mat in a way that guarantees it will survive despite stupid concrete finishing practices, lazy wire-tying, and corrosion. Again, I KNOW that it often does not! The repeated stories in the pool trade press of corrosion cause by measurable transient currents across pool components establishes that it does not -- a full #6 or #8 bare wire loop, individually tied to each metal element with a bare wire jumper, having a milli-ohm point-to-loop resistance would make such transients, at the levels seen, impossible.)

6. At least in commercial environments, bonding vs. grounding can create some inadvertent hazards. When I last encountered pool electrical inspection (10+ years ago), it was apparently still common to discourage direct grounding of the bond loops (the Faraday cage). This tends to happen incidentally, when residential local panels are bonded, but I've never seen a commercial supply in a pump room bonded. Coupled with allowed conduit grounds on pumps, this tends to result in pumps that are BONDED, but not grounded.

For someone switching on a commercial pump, while having a hand on the pump, this creates a very real potential hazard. You might think that's unlikely, but trust me, many pumps and panels are so badly placed that it's an everyday occurrence. I've personally only received very mild shocks (tingles) this way, but that's still a VERY bad thing.

7. EVERYBODY -- electricians, code authorities, maintenance staff, pool guys -- seem to forget that the only class of electrical power users who are as wet and exposed as pool power users are homeowners coming out of the bathroom. But even they aren't nearly as wet and exposed as pool staff:
=> a sopping wet bathroom floor usually means somebody is about to get yelled at, but a sopping pump room floor is almost the rule.
=> wet, dripping homeowners do not stand in a puddle, repeatedly switching 240V circuits on and off - but pool staff and pool owners do.
=> etc.

8. GFCI receptacles and circuit breakers do not always fail safe; I have seem them fail UN-safe more than once, in a pool environment.


.................................


Writing this, has made me recall more of the shocks I've gotten over the years than I've ever done before, at one time. I'm surprised I'm still alive!

Good points all. You know i forget there are other parts of the country that still don't license electricians. I knew that but much of my focus is out of the U.S. these days.

Please send me an email at rmachado@nfpa.org. I'd like to take this conversation off line and I don't see a PM function anywhere.

Thanks,
Robert.

[BigDave]

If you do take this conversation offline, would you please copy me on some of the conversation? (Ben has my addy) I have Engineering and industrial experience and am very interested in this conversation.