Whole pool without power

[Jodester]

We have an L-shaped vinyl inground pool with attached spa, which is about 15 years old. It therefore has two separate pumps -- a main pump and one just for the spa. It also has a Laars gas heater, and a Jandy Ray-Vac in-side automatic vac which runs as part of the same system as the regular filtration. We have a CompuPool SWCG system which is connected to our filter timer and only runs when the filtration system is on.

On Wednesday, August 28, my kids and I used the pool with the heater on. The heater automatically shuts off when the filtration system shuts off. I forgot to turn off the heater switch on Wednesday, so I presume the heater was on while the pool was on from 10am to 6pm on Thursday. Friday morning at around 11am I noticed the pool was not running. The first thing I did when I looked at the equipment was put the heater switch to the off position. Then I looked at the timer, which is a traditional dial with movable time selectors. I noticed that the clock dial was still on about 6pm, when the pool should have shut off the night before -- except the on/off switch was still in the on position. This indicates that the power cut off BEFORE the pool shut off, or as it was about to do so. So, I went over to the circuit board inside my house and saw that the double switch that controls the pool had flipped. So, I went outside, reset the clock and turned the timer switch to off, went back inside to flip the circuit switch back on, and then back outside to turn on the pool. It did indeed power on, and everything seemed fine.

This morning, Saturday, I looked out my window at around 11:30am and noticed that once again the pool was not running. I went outside and saw the clock had stopped only a little while before, and the switch was in the on position. Went back inside to check the circuit board, and saw that the switches had again flipped. I made a mental note at that time that I remembered that right around the time the clock had stopped on the pool timer that I had been inside on the computer, and noticed that our APC (battery back-up box) had been clicking on and off. I went to flip the switch back, and this time noticed that I needed to click it all the way off first, and then when I went to click it back on, some odd sounds came from behind the circuit box. They didn't sound like sizzling or anything -- almost more like knocking. Nonetheless, the switch clicked on -- but when I went outside to turn on the pool equipment, NOTHING.

Went back to the board and also happened to notice that the separate switch which controls the pool lights was also flipped off, and when I flipped it back on and went outside to turn on the lights to test them, they did not go on. Also, there is a surge-protected outlet on the same circuit as the pool light, and when I pressed the "test" button it clicked out, but when I went to press the "reset" button back in, it will not click back in.

So! Any ideas, anyone -- before my pool stagnates and turns green?

[PoolDoc]

I can tell you how to manage the pool: buy PLAIN 8.25% bleach, and begin adding 1 gallon per 10K gallons EACH evening. Stop swimming, too. The bleach will maintain the water as long as you aren't adding people goo.

If you don't already have a Taylor K2006, this would be a VERY good time to get one -- you need to know your CYA level accurately, and strips can't do that. You should also get a cheap local OTO kit (yellow / red drops) and use it. Skip chlorine doses if the OTO chlorine result reaches "orange" (not on the test block!).

Trouble shooting a Compupool is not something I'm willing to tackle; problems tend to be model-specific. However, if you know enough to work on the Compupool, you should also know enough to be able to bypass the control, and wire the circuit breaker directly to the pump. You'll be without the SWCG, and heater, but that's not going to affect pool operation. And, once you have the pump running, you can resume swimming.

[Jodester]

Sounds like you're thinking that the reason for the breakers flipping is the CompuPool. Is that why you are suggesting wiring the pump to the breaker without it? You think the pump will run as long as the CompuPool is not connected to it?

===================================

By the way -- I should add that besides the battery back-up box for the personal computer in our office clicking a little (even though it is on a separate circuit), nothing else inside our house seems to be affected.

[PoolDoc]

Honestly, I didn't read your entire post -- I thought it involved troubleshooting a Compupool controller, and dumped a fairly standard answer on you. Sorry.

What I told you about the bleach is still correct, however.

If your breaker is tripping, then you need to troubleshoot the circuit. I've seen local distribution systems have voltage problems -- for 5 years, we lived through that ourselves, and bought incandescent bulbs like candy! I never really got any help either. If it was JUST your pump, then I'd suspect inadequate wiring, but if you are hearing your computer UPS clicking in and out, that's pretty strong evidence of voltage problems . . . which can really kill electronics.

The problem I ran into, was that the voltage was OK every time I had it checked. So, you really have to have a voltage recorder. Last time I looked (5+ years ago) that was prohibitively expensive. But apparently, you can get a very function set up for under $250. That's still some moola, but I'll probably order one + software, to trouble shoot some problems at a customer pool. I've put the links below.

If you have a VS pump, I think I'd go ahead and get the voltage recorder -- if you lose the electronics on the pump, you're pretty much going to have to buy a whole new pump. Electromechanical pumps are MUCH more durable, and if that's what you have, I'd be tempted to bypass all the other gear, and ONLY connect the pump to your breaker.

BTW, breakers can fail 'trippy'. Given that a replacement is probably under $30, it might be worth swapping in a new one, just to see if that's the problem. I don't know how to test them otherwise.

BUT, let me do my regular pool + electrical warning:

Electricity + pools mix FATALLY. If you don't understand what I've said or don't know how to use a digital voltmeter or have never wired a circuit or replaced a breaker before . . . CALL AN ELECTRICIAN. Making electrical mistakes with pools puts you and your family at risk of DYING!

==================================================

Supco LCV LOGiT Current and Voltage Data Logger
Supco LLSU LOGiT Software and USB interface

I'm pretty sure you have to buy the software separately, but you might want to call and ask: http://www.supco.com/Contact%20Us.htm

[robbym70]

And...not your brother's cousin who does side jobs. Make sure they are licensed and do regular pool work and it wouldn't hurt to get some references as well. Doc is right...one mistake here could be deadly. I work for NFPA. The people who publish the National Electrical Code.

[PoolDoc]

Make sure they are licensed and do regular pool work and it wouldn't hurt to get some references as well.

I can't speak for all areas of the country, but in my area, following your instructions can be difficult: it's hard enough to get an electrician who is licensed, and WILLING to do pool work. Experience seems to teach many electricians that pool work can be a PITA, is not particularly profitable, and should be avoided.

I don't really KNOW why this is, but I can guess at some possible reasons:

1. Bonding is NOT the same as grounding, but most electrician (as opposed to electrical engineers) don't really grasp the concept of a Faraday cage. As far as I know, pools are the only enforcement area that requires them to understand and apply bonding.

2. Many 'outdoor' or 'all-weather' electrical components, are neither all-weather nor outdoor, in any durable sense. Usually, such components (such as an outdoor receptacle cover) are installed in locations so rarely used that no one notices their failure. But on pools, this is not the case. I've seen electricians baffled, more than once, when "outdoor" components (that were NEVER engineered to meet their labeling) failed in pool environments.

3. Electronically controlled electrical circuits, devices and motors seem to be common in two environments: industrial use, and pools. Industrial electricians are a different breed, and would laugh hysterically at the 'mickey-mouse' design of pool electronic control systems. Residential electricians don't know to laugh, but instead learn the hard way that such systems are a constant PITA and warranty hassle.

4. The majority of residential electricians I've encountered are really 'wire-pullers' and 'connection-makers' and have been baffled by a request to use a DPDT timer to control a dual winding pump (ie, 2 speed pump), much less anything more complex. Industrial electricians have no problems there, nor do some commercial electricians, BUT they are not usually called to pool sites.

5. The most recent NEC in my possession is ~20 years old. I'm aware of some updates, but have not gone through a complete code. However, there *were* numerous aspects of NEC permitted methods that I've seen consistently fail in pool or other hard use wet environments. Two that I recall immediately are:
=> conduit grounds (I *HATE* those things -- was nearly killed by one!)
=> bonding via the rebar mat rather than a continuous bare wire loop. (This is incredibly dumb: essentially, it delegates to the concrete guys the responsibility of establishing the electrical integrity of the mat in a way that guarantees it will survive despite stupid concrete finishing practices, lazy wire-tying, and corrosion. Again, I KNOW that it often does not! The repeated stories in the pool trade press of corrosion cause by measurable transient currents across pool components establishes that it does not -- a full #6 or #8 bare wire loop, individually tied to each metal element with a bare wire jumper, having a milli-ohm point-to-loop resistance would make such transients, at the levels seen, impossible.)

6. At least in commercial environments, bonding vs. grounding can create some inadvertent hazards. When I last encountered pool electrical inspection (10+ years ago), it was apparently still common to discourage direct grounding of the bond loops (the Faraday cage). This tends to happen incidentally, when residential local panels are bonded, but I've never seen a commercial supply in a pump room bonded. Coupled with allowed conduit grounds on pumps, this tends to result in pumps that are BONDED, but not grounded.

For someone switching on a commercial pump, while having a hand on the pump, this creates a very real potential hazard. You might think that's unlikely, but trust me, many pumps and panels are so badly placed that it's an everyday occurrence. I've personally only received very mild shocks (tingles) this way, but that's still a VERY bad thing.

7. EVERYBODY -- electricians, code authorities, maintenance staff, pool guys -- seem to forget that the only class of electrical power users who are as wet and exposed as pool power users are homeowners coming out of the bathroom. But even they aren't nearly as wet and exposed as pool staff:
=> a sopping wet bathroom floor usually means somebody is about to get yelled at, but a sopping pump room floor is almost the rule.
=> wet, dripping homeowners do not stand in a puddle, repeatedly switching 240V circuits on and off - but pool staff and pool owners do.
=> etc.

8. GFCI receptacles and circuit breakers do not always fail safe; I have seem them fail UN-safe more than once, in a pool environment.


.................................


Writing this, has made me recall more of the shocks I've gotten over the years than I've ever done before, at one time. I'm surprised I'm still alive!

[robbym70]

I can't speak for all areas of the country, but in my area, following your instructions can be difficult: it's hard enough to get an electrician who is licensed, and WILLING to do pool work. Experience seems to teach many electricians that pool work can be a PITA, is not particularly profitable, and should be avoided.

I don't really KNOW why this is, but I can guess at some possible reasons:

1. Bonding is NOT the same as grounding, but most electrician (as opposed to electrical engineers) don't really grasp the concept of a Faraday cage. As far as I know, pools are the only enforcement area that requires them to understand and apply bonding.

2. Many 'outdoor' or 'all-weather' electrical components, are neither all-weather nor outdoor, in any durable sense. Usually, such components (such as an outdoor receptacle cover) are installed in locations so rarely used that no one notices their failure. But on pools, this is not the case. I've seen electricians baffled, more than once, when "outdoor" components (that were NEVER engineered to meet their labeling) failed in pool environments.

3. Electronically controlled electrical circuits, devices and motors seem to be common in two environments: industrial use, and pools. Industrial electricians are a different breed, and would laugh hysterically at the 'mickey-mouse' design of pool electronic control systems. Residential electricians don't know to laugh, but instead learn the hard way that such systems are a constant PITA and warranty hassle.

4. The majority of residential electricians I've encountered are really 'wire-pullers' and 'connection-makers' and have been baffled by a request to use a DPDT timer to control a dual winding pump (ie, 2 speed pump), much less anything more complex. Industrial electricians have no problems there, nor do some commercial electricians, BUT they are not usually called to pool sites.

5. The most recent NEC in my possession is ~20 years old. I'm aware of some updates, but have not gone through a complete code. However, there *were* numerous aspects of NEC permitted methods that I've seen consistently fail in pool or other hard use wet environments. Two that I recall immediately are:
=> conduit grounds (I *HATE* those things -- was nearly killed by one!)
=> bonding via the rebar mat rather than a continuous bare wire loop. (This is incredibly dumb: essentially, it delegates to the concrete guys the responsibility of establishing the electrical integrity of the mat in a way that guarantees it will survive despite stupid concrete finishing practices, lazy wire-tying, and corrosion. Again, I KNOW that it often does not! The repeated stories in the pool trade press of corrosion cause by measurable transient currents across pool components establishes that it does not -- a full #6 or #8 bare wire loop, individually tied to each metal element with a bare wire jumper, having a milli-ohm point-to-loop resistance would make such transients, at the levels seen, impossible.)

6. At least in commercial environments, bonding vs. grounding can create some inadvertent hazards. When I last encountered pool electrical inspection (10+ years ago), it was apparently still common to discourage direct grounding of the bond loops (the Faraday cage). This tends to happen incidentally, when residential local panels are bonded, but I've never seen a commercial supply in a pump room bonded. Coupled with allowed conduit grounds on pumps, this tends to result in pumps that are BONDED, but not grounded.

For someone switching on a commercial pump, while having a hand on the pump, this creates a very real potential hazard. You might think that's unlikely, but trust me, many pumps and panels are so badly placed that it's an everyday occurrence. I've personally only received very mild shocks (tingles) this way, but that's still a VERY bad thing.

7. EVERYBODY -- electricians, code authorities, maintenance staff, pool guys -- seem to forget that the only class of electrical power users who are as wet and exposed as pool power users are homeowners coming out of the bathroom. But even they aren't nearly as wet and exposed as pool staff:
=> a sopping wet bathroom floor usually means somebody is about to get yelled at, but a sopping pump room floor is almost the rule.
=> wet, dripping homeowners do not stand in a puddle, repeatedly switching 240V circuits on and off - but pool staff and pool owners do.
=> etc.

8. GFCI receptacles and circuit breakers do not always fail safe; I have seem them fail UN-safe more than once, in a pool environment.


.................................


Writing this, has made me recall more of the shocks I've gotten over the years than I've ever done before, at one time. I'm surprised I'm still alive!

Good points all. You know i forget there are other parts of the country that still don't license electricians. I knew that but much of my focus is out of the U.S. these days.

Please send me an email at rmachado@nfpa.org. I'd like to take this conversation off line and I don't see a PM function anywhere.

Thanks,
Robert.

[BigDave]

If you do take this conversation offline, would you please copy me on some of the conversation? (Ben has my addy) I have Engineering and industrial experience and am very interested in this conversation.