Bromine Chemistry Question

[FormerBromineUser]

Just to make absolutely sure I STAY on track, my plan is:

1.) Keep pH between 7.4-7.6

2.) Keep FC between 1.5-2.0 with dichlor until CYA reaches 30

3.) Don't use the CuLators, HEDP, or Kem-Tek algaecide

4.) Don't dose with cal-hypo/borax

5.) Don't raise borates yet

When do I know it is time to use stuff in 3) & 4) ? You gave me directions for all of them but I really don't know WHEN to use them (other than no borates until I think there is not too much metal in the water) I just need clarification about timing ie. one reply says CuLators now, another says wait. Again, it is my fault that I got things so out of order, sorry.

[PoolDoc]

Do #1 & #2.

Go ahead and use the CuLator units -- it won't hurt them to do so, as long as they don't get goo-ey. Plus they act very slowly, so the more they are in the pool, the better.

Let's stick with that for the next week at least. Don't over-test CYA; you'll run out of reagent. Let me know if you see any staining occurring.

I'll try to get your pics posted tomorrow.

[FormerBromineUser]

Perfectly understood, thanks.
If no staining, talk to you next week.
Happy Memorial Day! No swimming for us with no heater. Boohoo.

[FormerBromineUser]

Made it through the week! I hope you had a great holiday weekend celebrating our veterans and being with family. I went to Virginia to pick up my son from college and on our way home we visited several historical sites including the Flight 93 Memorial. 41 heroes died that day in PA; 40 adults and one yet-to-be-born person. Anyway....

Currently my numbers are:
FC: 2.0 (it was tested while I was gone and varied from 1.5 to 2.5 only)
CC: <0.5
pH: 7.4
TA: 100
CH: 60 (did this twice so I am sure, hmmmm)
CYA: did not test. My best guess is 20-25. I only added 2-1/2C dichlor all week so I am saving reagents.
STAINING: Most of the week I had an orange mottling on the steps but just slightly darker than right after the ascorbic acid scrub. However, yesterday, in 75 degree water temps, the boys dove in! When their waves hit the steps, I could clearly see an orange water line on the stairs as the waves fell below it (white above, solid light-orange below). This staining is not visible otherwise. I just installed the 1.5 ppm Spring Opener CuLator packs tonight in both skimmers; I only received them today and there were only two in my order????

What do you suggest I do next?

BTW, I have on hand:
25+ lbs. granular dichlor (99% Sam's Club)
11 lbs. cal-hypo (68% In-The-Swim)
3 G 12.5% bleach
8 121oz. 8.25% bleach
5 lbs. sodium carbonate
2 lbs. sodium bicarbonate
76 oz. (1 box) borax
2 G 31.45% muriatic acid
4 qts. polyquat (Kem-Tek 60% algaecide)
1 qt. 60% HEDP (Jack's Magic Pink Stuff)
25 LaMotte borate test-strips
DE 20+ lbs.
2 skimmer socks

[FormerBromineUser]

.
Hey. Thank you again for all your help getting my CHLORINE pool up and running!!!

My pool is doing well. I did a little more ascorbic acid scrubbing on the stairs and they look good. My CYA is not yet at 30 but it's closer than my post last week. I have hardly had to add any dichlor so it's a slow-go to raise CYA...with a broken heater it's too cold to swim much.)

I still want to add borates. Since I'm not sure when you were going to recommend that, I went ahead and did a metals bucket test. (I only did pool water at this point as I only wanted to buy one bucket. I will test my fill water after I am done with the pool water. I haven't had to use the hose to fill.)

Anyway, here are my results:

6.) Wait 15 minutes, and note any color change. None

10.) After 24 hours, inspect. Note clarity, color and sediment, if any visible Still clear, no color, no sediment

11.) After 24 *more* hours, inspect. Note clarity, color and sediment, if any visible Still clear, no color, no sediment. I even put my arm in there and swiped the bottom of the bucket and it is squeaky clean.

12.) Test both buckets for chlorine levels with OTO. You should not get a 'normal' reading, but report resultant color. Color with OTO was weird. It was kind of clear in the background with orange-red specks floating in it. I shook it vigorously and the background did turn orange-ish but the specks never disappeared. I think the background would have returned to clear after shaking but the fumes started to bother me so I pitched the sample.

I am now waiting the additional three days as per: 14.) Recover the buckets, and wait 3 days, and check again.

[PoolDoc]

Sounds like your metal free!

You do understand that borates make your pool more resistant to algae, but don't guarantee and algae free pool?

Assuming that you do, for a 30k gallon pool, you'll need about 23 boxes of borax (~$4 each) and 8 gallons of 31% muriatic acid (~$8 each), so the total cost would be $160. It is a permanent addition, except for leaks, backwashing and splashout.

[chem geek]

Or you could use 72 pounds of boric acid. At DudaDiesel this is $65 for 55 pounds plus $45 for 25 pounds plus shipping for the 55 pounds so $110 plus shipping (or 3 25 pounds would be $135 with free shipping). AAA Chemical has $60 for 50 pounds so $120 for 100 pounds plus shipping. The Chemistry Store has $89.10 for 55 pounds and $27.75 for 15 pounds so that's $117 for 70 pounds plus shipping.

Personally, I find using boric acid to be a lot easier since it's just one chemical to add. It didn't used to be as inexpensive as Borax plus acid, but these days it's a lot closer and I think a lot more convenient. Be sure to get granular and not powdered -- the powdered version tends to sit on top of the pool. The granular still dissolves very quickly and is gone with some light brushing. The effect on pH only drops it from 7.5 to around 7.2 when you add 50 ppm borates (the quantities above).

[FormerBromineUser]

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Great news!!!!

Thank you so much for all the help you have given me and others here on the forum. You are truly amazingly generous people to donate so much of your time and energy to us all. In my case: special, special thanks to Ben! Your patience is astounding. After reading SO MANY posts where people look for advice and then don't follow it, (even lie about following it), I know I would either give up or be a sarcastic SOB. Kudos, forum folk!!!

Yes, I know borates are not a solution to algae. I am looking for water comfort. My grumpy husband, after swimming 3 times this year, complains about his hair and skin after being in the pool. Happy husband = happy life???? Ha!!! I will use the "slow" plan for adding borates -just in case. BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

[PoolDoc]

BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

Wow!

Something else to consider: most of the chemicals that form in chlorinated pools, which cause undesired on skin, hair, or eyes are NOT broken down by 'shocking' but ARE broken down by chlorine + solar UV.

Opening your cover on sunny days will probably have MORE effect on the water quality, than the borates will. Of course, the borates won't hurt.

[chem geek]

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Yes, I know borates are not a solution to algae. I am looking for water comfort. My grumpy husband, after swimming 3 times this year, complains about his hair and skin after being in the pool. Happy husband = happy life???? Ha!!! I will use the "slow" plan for adding borates -just in case. BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

I don't think the borates are going to change his experience with hair and skin. It might, but I wouldn't count on it. Let us know.

Skin oils get washed off even soaking in pure water. So he could complain just being in any body of water for too long. Does he complain about the feeling after being in a bathtub for as long as he would be in a pool?

The other factor would be the active chlorine level. When previously using bromine, it is stronger than chlorine with CYA so that could have been an issue. With chlorine, so long as CYA is present, the active chlorine level is lower than that in tap water (if it's chlorinated -- not chloraminated).

My wife is in our pool every day for around an hour for therapy exercises and she just showers after she swims and uses three shampoos with respect to swimming/chlorine. The first one is "Ultra Swim Chlorine Removal Shampoo, Moisturizing Formula" which she uses every day. This is the primary shampoo that has reducing agents to remove the chlorine bound to organics in hair. The second is "Aquia Swimmers' Shampoo and Conditioner by Barracuda" which she uses most days but not necessarily every day (it has conditioner so you use it when you would want to condition your hair and not just shampoo it). The third is very strong and powerful so is only used once a week and is "Paul Mitchell clarifying, Shampoo Three". This latter will strip your hair if you use it too often, but it is the only one that removes a slimy buildup at the nape of the neck at lowest base of hair -- probably an accumulation of suntan lotion.

Again, a big issue is just being in water for a long time. Sure, the chlorine doesn't help, but it's not the only factor.