Newb here; some general questions and observations

[paulvzo]

The background is that at age 66 I take care of the 1957 pool I swam in as a kid. Classic 1950's kidney shaped 9000 gallon thing.

My chemistry background is high school basic, but then also many years involved in hobby photochemistry, creating developers and things like that.

I have found Ben and this site a blessing! As I told my brother, " He's smart, he's cynical, he's an experimenter. He dislikes pool stores as chemical pushers."

So here are some comments, questions, and observations in no particular order:

1. Ben, you mentioned Chlorox Ultra as having "goop." I think you will find that said goop is sodium hydroxide. Lye. Incorporation of sodium hydroxide helps turn the water in laundry alkaline and then, hence, tends to help the detergents. Similar to "Washing Soda" or borax.

2. If one wants to increase pH, why not use lye/sodium hydroxide? While having little or no buffering value, it is free of downstream problems like anything with carbonates. In fact, sodium hypochlorite is made by running chlorine gas through sodium hydroxide solution. That's why liquid chlorine raises pH. Once upon a time Red Devil brand drain cleaner was straight sodium hydroxide. The old solid Drano was the same, and a few aluminum flakes to make many bubbles. Said products are almost impossible to fine now, sadly. But there are also hobbyist (photochemical) merchants. Major pH bang for the buck.

3. Why can't we buy granular sodium hypochlorite? Fifty years ago my father did, we had a drum in the garage. A cup or whatever as needed, no jugs, no hassle. EPA or shipping regs? Sure as heck beats water, jugs, etc.

4. This is the only site I've seen that points out the relationship between levels of cyanuric acid and measured free chlorine needed. Should be well known, obviously not. A "DOH!" moment for me. Thank you. On that topic, after draining and refilling - oh, I do love that well Dad put in - I found that chlorine disappeared at alarming rates, just as you say. From 3ppm or more to nothing in a few hours. Yes, the pool is in full Florida sunlight. A mere 3 pounds of stabilizer changed that.

5. Does anyone use a pH meter? This is something from my photochemistry days after decades of using color change strips. I think it cost about $20 on eBay. Although you do have to keep a pH 7.0 test solution and check against it, it's so easy to get pH almost instantly accurate to the one tenth.

6. I'm trying the borax thing and look forward to a minimally chlorinated pool. Since it's only me and the occasional egret, I'm not worried about health issues.

I look forward to a good pool summer!

[PoolDoc]

1. Ben, you mentioned Chlorox Ultra as having "goop." I think you will find that said goop is sodium hydroxide. Lye. Incorporation of sodium hydroxide helps turn the water in laundry alkaline and then, hence, tends to help the detergents. Similar to "Washing Soda" or borax.

NaOH is the 'extra' in PLAIN bleach, including PLAIN (6%) "Ultra". But "Ultra" comes in 'flavors', including gelled, with detergents, etc. We've had problems with users not distinguishing between plain "Ultra" and 'flavored' "Ultra" -- it's easier for us and for them to say PLAIN 'store brand' 6%

2. If one wants to increase pH, why not use lye/sodium hydroxide? While having little or no buffering value, it is free of downstream problems like anything with carbonates. In fact, sodium hypochlorite is made by running chlorine gas through sodium hydroxide solution. That's why liquid chlorine raises pH. Once upon a time Red Devil brand drain cleaner was straight sodium hydroxide. The old solid Drano was the same, and a few aluminum flakes to make many bubbles. Said products are almost impossible to fine now, sadly. But there are also hobbyist (photochemical) merchants. Major pH bang for the buck.

It's hard to find, and is dangerous, compared to most other chemicals. Mostly it's available as drain cleaner, often with additives. When we recommend chemicals, we have to make judgements about whether the average user here can follow the instructions well enough to do what we say safely. NaOH falls outside that area. (There are all SORTS of things I do locally, that I never mention here!)

3. Why can't we buy granular sodium hypochlorite? Fifty years ago my father did, we had a drum in the garage. A cup or whatever as needed, no jugs, no hassle. EPA or shipping regs? Sure as heck beats water, jugs, etc.

You're confusing sodium hypochlorite with calcium hypochlorite. Sodium hypochlorite, above 20% or so, starts becoming too unstable to handle or transport.

4. This is the only site I've seen that points out the relationship between levels of cyanuric acid and measured free chlorine needed. Should be well known, obviously not. A "DOH!" moment for me. Thank you. On that topic, after draining and refilling - oh, I do love that well Dad put in - I found that chlorine disappeared at alarming rates, just as you say. From 3ppm or more to nothing in a few hours. Yes, the pool is in full Florida sunlight. A mere 3 pounds of stabilizer changed that.

There are other sites, now. (But they copied me! )

5. Does anyone use a pH meter? This is something from my photochemistry days after decades of using color change strips. I think it cost about $20 on eBay. Although you do have to keep a pH 7.0 test solution and check against it, it's so easy to get pH almost instantly accurate to the one tenth.

I'm glad you got an accurate pH meter for $20, but that's the exception, not the rule. Most people skip the buffer checks, and end up with massively inaccurate pH results. We only recommend meters for the color blind.

[waterbear]

Thought I'd add a few things, hope no one minds.

1. Ben, you mentioned Chlorox Ultra as having "goop." I think you will find that said goop is sodium hydroxide. Lye. Incorporation of sodium hydroxide helps turn the water in laundry alkaline and then, hence, tends to help the detergents. Similar to "Washing Soda" or borax.

If you are talking about Clorox Professional Bleach it is plain sodium hypochorite and all sodium hypochlorite contains lye, whether bleach or pool chlorine, because it keeps the chlorine gas in soluton. If you are talking about the Clorox sold at the grocery, the unscented one also contains sodium polyacrylate to keep dirt from depositing back on clothes in the wash so it does have "goop". However, sodium polyacrylate is also the main ingredient in many polymeric pool clarifiers so it probably does not have any real negative effect. The other forms of retail Clorox are NOT plain sodium hypochlorite and contain sufactants, thickeners, and other stuff you do not want in your pool. The generic bleaches from places like Walmart and the grocery store house brands are usually plain sodium hypochlorite and therefore preferable to Clorox (unless you have a janitorial supply that you can get the Professional one from.)

2. If one wants to increase pH, why not use lye/sodium hydroxide? While having little or no buffering value, it is free of downstream problems like anything with carbonates. In fact, sodium hypochlorite is made by running chlorine gas through sodium hydroxide solution. That's why liquid chlorine raises pH. Once upon a time Red Devil brand drain cleaner was straight sodium hydroxide. The old solid Drano was the same, and a few aluminum flakes to make many bubbles. Said products are almost impossible to fine now, sadly. But there are also hobbyist (photochemical) merchants. Major pH bang for the buck.

Actually, chem geek has suggested this as an alternative but, as Ben pointed out, it is a dangerous caustic chemical (that I have worked with a lot because of my soapmaking hobby).

3. Why can't we buy granular sodium hypochlorite? Fifty years ago my father did, we had a drum in the garage. A cup or whatever as needed, no jugs, no hassle. EPA or shipping regs? Sure as heck beats water, jugs, etc.

As Ben pointed out, Sodium Hypochlorite is a liquid (ususlly manufactured these days by bubblingchlorine gas through a cold sodium hydroxide solutions resulting in sodium hypochlorite and salt), Calcium hypochlorite is granular and is probably what your father had in the garage. It can be dangerous to store, btw. The other granular unstabilized chlorine is lithium hypochorite but it is extremely expen$ive so it is not used that often.

4. This is the only site I've seen that points out the relationship between levels of cyanuric acid and measured free chlorine needed. Should be well known, obviously not. A "DOH!" moment for me. Thank you. On that topic, after draining and refilling - oh, I do love that well Dad put in - I found that chlorine disappeared at alarming rates, just as you say. From 3ppm or more to nothing in a few hours. Yes, the pool is in full Florida sunlight. A mere 3 pounds of stabilizer changed that.

Actually, this info has been known since the '60s but the chemical companies have kept it under wraps because it would hurt their sales of chorinated isocyanurates (stabilized chloirne, trichlor and dichlor).

5. Does anyone use a pH meter? This is something from my photochemistry days after decades of using color change strips. I think it cost about $20 on eBay. Although you do have to keep a pH 7.0 test solution and check against it, it's so easy to get pH almost instantly accurate to the one tenth.

I have used them in a laboratory but they are really too much work for a pool. Most inexpensive ones are not worth the money, decent ones are fragile, electrodes have to be stored properly or they become worthless and they wear out and have to be replaced regularly, ditto for the standard solutions, they need to stay uncontaminated and tightly sealed (and one point calibration meters are not very good, you really need three point calibration).
IF you are not colorblind then a phenol red test in a GOOD comparator (such as the ones from Taylor or LaMotte). is more than enough precision for pools (and as a bonus you can also add acid and base demand tests which a meter cannot do!)

6. I'm trying the borax thing and look forward to a minimally chlorinated pool. Since it's only me and the occasional egret, I'm not worried about health issues.

Not sure where you got the idea that borax will allow you to run a lower chlorine level. It won't! You have to run the proper FC based on your CYA. Period. What 50 ppm borate WILL do is act as an algaestat, introduce a secondray pH buffer system that works with the bicarbonate buffer to effectively "lock" the pH at around 7.7 for a longer period of time than without the borate, make the water 'sparkle' (changes the refractive index), and makes it feel 'softer' (it becomes less aggressive to skin than water without added electrolytes since it becomes closer to the isoelectric point of skin. Plain salt will also have this effect, which is one of the reasons SWCGs have become so popular--the water 'feels' better.)

[paulvzo]

Thanks Ben and Waterbear for your time and answers. A few replies:

1. I stand corrected on the contents of the Chlorox products. I was working from (obviously) defective, several years old, memory. What I can tell you, cuz I just looked yesterday, is that my $3 Dollar General 2 gallons of bleach is 6% Sodium hypochlorite and nothing else. So, expensive compare to the pool store chlorine, but not so much to use it in an emergency.

2. I also stand corrected on the granular chlorine my dad used to use. It was indeed HTH, I now recall the label.

3. Sure, drain cleaner is dangerous in the wrong hands. I can understand why it wouldn't be sold to the general pool public. But for those of us who have handled dangerous things of any category and know how to do so safely, it seems to me a good way to go. The Red Devil brand appears to be pure SH.

4. I like my pH meter. At least as accurate as trying to interpolate colors. And "to the tenth" is all anyone needs.

5. I want to minimize chlorine due to the expense. I am on a very limited income until my mother dies and I can go back to work. There is a thread just recently about a gentleman going ten days on vacation and the water was clear when he got back.

6. BTW, just how DO you measure the borate level? I can understand the math for the initial blast, but after that?

Again, thanks for the help and keeping me honest!

[waterbear]

Thanks Ben and Waterbear for your time and answers. A few replies:

and a few answers for you

3. Sure, drain cleaner is dangerous in the wrong hands. I can understand why it wouldn't be sold to the general pool public. But for those of us who have handled dangerous things of any category and know how to do so safely, it seems to me a good way to go. The Red Devil brand appears to be pure SH.

However, Reckitt-Benckiser, the manufacturer of Red Devil discontinued the product a few years back and most stores have pulled other brands of lye off their shelves because it is used in meth labs (as any soapmaker can tell you!) It usually has to be ordered from a chemical supplier these days so it is not a readily available option anymore, making this a moot point.

4. I like my pH meter. At least as accurate as trying to interpolate colors. And "to the tenth" is all anyone needs.

Sorry. to burst your bubble but just becase the meter reads to one decimal point does not mean your readings are that precise, paricularly with a one point calibration meter. As I said before I have used pH meters in the lab and know their ins and outs very well.
Also, if you have ever used a high precison pH comparator such as found in the Taylor 2000 series kits or midget comparator kits (as opposed to the pH comparators found in inexpensive 2 way or 4 way OTO test kits) you would not need ot 'interpolate colors. In fact, phenol red has distinct color changes for different pH so that it is possible to read the color itself and not rely on the comparator once one is familiar with it. The main point here is that a pheonl red test with a quality comparator is going to be much more precise than an inexpensive, 1 point calibration pH meter. Period. (I use the term 'precise' because there is a difference between precise and accurate. Accurate means that the result obtained is repeatable. Precise means that the result is correct. If you have a meter that is not correctly calibrated or has an electrode that is near the end of its life ti might give you the same results upon multiple tests of the same sample meaning the meter is accurate but is does not mean that this repeatable result is the correct one!)

5. I want to minimize chlorine due to the expense. I am on a very limited income until my mother dies and I can go back to work. There is a thread just recently about a gentleman going ten days on vacation and the water was clear when he got back.

That 'gentleman' was me. However, that was just because the borate kept the algae from growing so the pool did not turn green (as it nornally would here in FL in just a few days). It does not mean the water was safe to swim in and, as I said in the post, the first thing I did was shock the pool. A very important point is that clear water does not always mean safe water. This is an important distinction to remember! How do you determine safe water? By making sure you have the appropriate amount of an EPA approved fast acting residual sanitizer in the water. Borax is NOT a santizer. I normally keep my FC at 5 ppm (SWCG with CYA at 80 ppm so minimum FC would be 4 ppm for me). I repeat, 50 ppm borate does NOT allow a reduced FC any more than copper/silver, ozone, UV light, etc. does if you want to maintain SAFE water!

6. BTW, just how DO you measure the borate level? I can understand the math for the initial blast, but after that?

with either borate test strips or a drop based borate test kit. As far as the strips go, the ones from LaMotte are the easiest to read because the color changes are from rose to tan.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?14994
scroll down to #5
The AquaChek ones are very close shades of tan and very difficult to read.
The only drop based test still on the market that I am aware of is an add on for the Taylor K-2005/K-2006 test kits from Piscines-Apollo Pools in Montreal, Canada. It uses two of the reagents in the Taylor kit and the large tube on the Taylor comparator for the test so you MUST have one of these two Taylor kits (and should have the K-2006 anyway. It's the best test kit to own if yo have a pool.)
Proteam used to make a stand alone borate drop based test kit but discontinued it and now sell the LaMotte strips rebranded with their name.