RE: In-Ground, DE Filter Pool With Clear Green Water

[barbjack]

Still waitning on the test kit. We closed the pool after my last post at 1.0 chlorine. Opened it today, 4 days later. The water is much clearer and a much lighter shade of green. The algae/whatever that was coating the walls is a lot less too, although back in a few spots. I tested today with the two-way test I have and Chlorine is back down to between 1.0 and 0.6, pH is steady at 7.8 (if the tests are accurate).

We added one more gallon of 10% chlorine, and brushed. Filter pressure was up again also, so we'll backwash too. I will be doing the second dose of polyquat this afternoon after the chlorine, brushing and backwashing. Then I'll test the chlorine again. We have one more bottle, if it drops this afternoon, I'll add the second bottle, if it doesn't, I'll test in the morning and add it then, if it needs it.(which it probably will).

I will do the CYA test as soon as the new test kit arrives (hurry, hurry mail!) I'm really
curious as to it's level too, since we've used nothing but the pucks for the last 3 years.
Before that the pool guy used them too, but I don't know if he supplimented with liquid chlorine or did any shock treatments.

But as I said, it looks so much better, I can see light at the end of the green tunnel now! lol.

Again, thanks for all the help!

[barbjack]

My Husband went to get more liquid chlorine (he got 6 total) and while he was there picked up a 5-way kit because I just was not trusting the kit I had. Turns out my suspicions were right and we got rather differnent readings.
Looks like the chlorine reading was fairly accurate but the pH was not,

with the new 5-way kit (not the Taylor kit that's still in transit)
Free Chlorine-0.6
Combined Chlorine-0.6
pH-6.8
Total Alkylinity-120

We added one more gallon of 10% Chlorine and an hour later it was
1.0, both FC and CC.
the other two readings the same.

We added 1 more gallon chlorine (that's 3 gallons total today) and are closing the cover and will test again in the morning.
I have 1/3 a box of borax left, I guess I should get some more tomorrow.
So what now?
Thanks again.

[PoolDoc]

Keep chlorinating and report the K2006 readings when you get them.

[barbjack]

Water temperature is 85*F

We've been adding an average of 1 or 2 gallons of 10% liquid Chlorine almost everyday for the last week and have just kept it between 0.6 and 1.0 give or take. The cloudyness has cleared up and the green color has paled quite a bit but it's still rather green.

Also added 32 oz. of Polyquat in two doses, three days apart.

The yellow-green algae (I think it's algae, it puffs up like dust when we brush it, makes the water cloudy for about an hour before it's filtered out) that has been on the sides has lessened too, to about a few patches here and there the next day after adding chlorine and brushing. There is some spider web like staining on the sides in addition to the brown iron stains on the steps.

Where would I take the water to have it tested for metals, iron and copper?

Even though the green is less, it's still about the color of slightly diluted Mountain Dew or Gatorade. That's the best color match I can think of.

What next?

[PoolDoc]

As best we can tell, metals testing used on pool water is NOT reliable.

One problem is that is that various pool products contain chemicals that can 'shield' soluble iron or copper from being measure. A second problem is that the tests only detect solubles, and simply the process of collecting a water sample, and carrying it to the store can change soluble metals to insolubles. When I used to collect water samples on a potable system, the sample used for metal testing had to be 'pre-charged' with acid and also had to be filled to eliminate ALL air space in the sample bottle.

The metals bucket test is intended to 'break' any 'shielding', drop ALL the metals present to the bottom, and give a reliable qualitative indications of metals present, rather than the quantitative, but unreliable results from various test kits.

[barbjack]

Interesting, so for the lay person, metal testing is unreliable to the point of being useless? So do we just assume because my pool water had been on the acid side and I have mostly copper pipes, I probably have some copper?

To my knowledge, I haven't used any pool products that contain copper. I checked our chlorine pucks and they do not have copper.

I also looks like I left off the first part of my post with my test results. I tend to type in a document and then cut and past so I don't lose stuff if a posting goes wrong. So here it is again;

We recived the Taylor 2006A test kit today. Here's the results;

FC- 1.2 ppm
CC- 0.2

pH- 7.0

TA- 120 ppm
CH- 875 ppm

CYA- 90 ppm

[Watermom]

Just use the 10mL sample instead of the 25mL one as it will save on your reagents.

[barbjack]

Just added the last two gallons of 10% chlorine and 1/3 box of borax tonight after the sun was off the pool. FC was just about zero before the addition. We added 2 gallons last night too and only got it up to 1.2ppm. This a.m. it was pretty much gone.

The water is clear but still Gatorade green, although a little lighter shade. Still have the spider-web like staining on the sides. Could algae be collecting in fine cracks in the plaster? Could this be mustard algae? I've been reading about it, hope we don't have it. And of course, still have the brown iron stains on the stairs. Except for the two white spots where I placed two halves of a vitamin C tablet.

I'm getting pretty frustrated here. My husband seems to think 1-2 gallons of 10% chlorine a day should be enough and is skeptical that we need more. With a CYA level of 90ppm we should be running 5-10ppm chlorine levels at a minimum for manintenence and it looks like we need at least 20-75 for shock levels I think. I have no idea how many gallons that would be for either level. Do we just keep dumping in gallon after gallon until it regesters 20+ppm? And how many would that be? 5 gallons, 10, 20? I want to have the right amount on hand but what is that amount?
Is there a calulator somewhere or a formula that we could plug in our pool gallons + CYA level+ ppm needed? I'm not that good at math, but if I have a formula and a calculator I could probably figure it out. Or is it just add until it's enough, and hold it there for a few days? I guess I want to know how many gallons to have on hand. I don't want to keep running to the store every other day.
My drop dead date of September 1st is fast approching and I've lost a week just waiting for the test kit.

With our CYA levels at 90ppm we would need to keep our Chlorine levels at least to 5ppm for everyday maintenence let alone shock levels. Is there any other method to reduce CYA other than dilution of the pool water? If we dumped 20% of the water would that bring it down to 70%? That wouold be a more manageable level of chlorine to me.

Anyway I'm getting really frustrated and confused at this point. And I haven't even talked about the metal issues.

[PoolDoc]

Your PF is 3.4. 10% chlorine -- if it's still full strength and if it's boxed bleach, it almost certainly is NOT -- contains 10% x 8.5lbs, or 0.85 lbs of chlorine. Multiply your PF x your available chlorine for 5.8 ppm of chlorine IN YOUR POOL, per gallon. In other words, 2 gallons of pool store bleach will add up to 6 ppm. 2 gallons of Walmart bleach (6%) will add about 3.5 ppm.

The fact that you added 2 gallons, and only reached 1.2 ppm tells me your pool store bleach is probably weaker than Walmart bleach!

Your husband is right -- 1 - 2 gallons should be more than enough per day, IF
+ your pool was algae free (but it's not!)
+ had no other chlorine demand (but it doesn't)
+ the pool bleach was full strength (but, in August, it's not)

=> Algae can collect in cracks. Both mustard and black algae do this. BOTH types are VERY chlorine resistant.

=> Adding chlorine, without adding ENOUGH chlorine to kill them, just leaves you in a Vietnam style conflict with your enemy, in which both sides take huge losses and neither side wins. You've got to make up your mind about whether you're willing to do what it takes to win.

=> There's no 'free' way to clean up your pool. We can help you do it better, and for less than a pool store would, but on a 35,000 gallon pool, you are going to have to spend several hundred dollars to get rid of your algae and clean up your stains.

=> You haven't 'lost' any time waiting for the kit: if we take off and start treating your pool without testing and proper prep you could spend several hundred dollars and accomplish nothing.

=> The "PoolCalculator" (poolcalculator.com) allows people to calcuate exact doses . . . but that's only helpful if you know the other stuff you need to know. For example, The PoolCalculator won't help you figure out that your 10% labeled bleach is currently probably 4%! You'd probably end up thinking the PoolCalculator has a math error.

=> This is extremely difficult water:

FC - 1.2 ppm
CC - 0.2
pH - 7.0
TA - 120 ppm
CH - 875 ppm
CYA - 90 ppm

I don't recall ever seeing a calcium level that high, before.

=> Under the circumstances, what I'd recommend is
+ Realize you can NOT use cal hypo (calcium will turn your pool to milk), or
+ Trichlor or dichlor (will add MORE stabilizer)
+ Which leaves bleach . . . BUT your pool store bleach has 'cooked off' in summer heat;
+ Which leaves you buying dozens of gallons of Walmart bleach!
+ 10 gallons tonight; and 10 gallons tomorrow night + brushing would be a start.
+ You MUST keep your pH low, so you need to read the muriatic acid page (see my signature), and get a couple of gallons at Lowes.
+ Once the algae is under control, you have to lower your calcium, because HEDP won't work properly with that much calcium in your water. That's a major process, too.
+ You need to order polyquat, because that's the only thing you can leave in your water while you are messing with all the other stuff.
+ Once you have controlled the algae (not: eradicated -- that's probably not practical, right now!) and lowered the calcium, THEN you can tackle the stains.
+ The only easier path I can think of, is drain and refill, BUT you need to (a) check on the cost, and (b) make sure it will help by testing your fill water and making sure IT doesn't have super high calcium, AND (c) check to make sure there aren't local restrictions on draining and refilling (you are in California, where such restrictions are common).
+ To make SURE you are testing calcium correctly, please watch the Taylor calcium videos on this page: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?17157

So . . . it's up to you. What do you choose to do?

[barbjack]

Your PF is 3.4. 10% chlorine -- if it's still full strength and if it's boxed bleach, it almost certainly is NOT -- contains 10% x 8.5lbs, or 0.85 lbs of chlorine. Multiply your PF x your available chlorine for 5.8 ppm of chlorine IN YOUR POOL, per gallon. In other words, 2 gallons of pool store bleach will add up to 6 ppm. 2 gallons of Walmart bleach (6%) will add about 3.5 ppm.

The fact that you added 2 gallons, and only reached 1.2 ppm tells me your pool store bleach is probably weaker than Walmart bleach!

Your husband is right -- 1 - 2 gallons should be more than enough per day, IF
+ your pool was algae free (but it's not!)
+ had no other chlorine demand (but it doesn't)
+ the pool bleach was full strength (but, in August, it's not)

=> Algae can collect in cracks. Both mustard and black algae do this. BOTH types are VERY chlorine resistant.

=> Adding chlorine, without adding ENOUGH chlorine to kill them, just leaves you in a Vietnam style conflict with your enemy, in which both sides take huge losses and neither side wins. You've got to make up your mind about whether you're willing to do what it takes to win.

=> There's no 'free' way to clean up your pool. We can help you do it better, and for less than a pool store would, but on a 35,000 gallon pool, you are going to have to spend several hundred dollars to get rid of your algae and clean up your stains. I don't mind spending the money if we get a clean pool, money to me is not the biggest obstetrical. But my husband is still not getting this. (sigh)

=> You haven't 'lost' any time waiting for the kit: if we take off and start treating your pool without testing and proper prep you could spend several hundred dollars and accomplish nothing. True

=> The "PoolCalculator" (poolcalculator.com) allows people to calcuate exact doses . . . but that's only helpful if you know the other stuff you need to know. For example, The PoolCalculator won't help you figure out that your 10% labeled bleach is currently probably 4%! You'd probably end up thinking the PoolCalculator has a math error.

=> This is extremely difficult water:

FC - 1.2 ppm
CC - 0.2
pH - 7.0
TA - 120 ppm
CH - 875 ppm
CYA - 90 ppm

I don't recall ever seeing a calcium level that high, before.

=> Under the circumstances, what I'd recommend is
+ Realize you can NOT use cal hypo (calcium will turn your pool to milk), or
+ Trichlor or dichlor (will add MORE stabilizer)
+ Which leaves bleach . . . BUT your pool store bleach has 'cooked off' in summer heat;
+ Which leaves you buying dozens of gallons of Walmart bleach!
+ 10 gallons tonight; and 10 gallons tomorrow night + brushing would be a start. He's at Walmart now getting 10 gallons of chlorine. But he keeps insisting on getting the 10% pool chlorine, saying it's cheaper. He agreed that the chlorine he bought before was probably dissipated as he buys it at Home Depot and they keep it in the shade but it is outside. I have to work tomorrow, so Monday I'm going to Walmart and get 10 gallons of plain bleach from the laundry area.
+ You MUST keep your pH low, so you need to read the muriatic acid page (see my signature), and get a couple of gallons at Lowes. pH was 7.0 yesterday, will check again today. We still have about 1/2 gallon of muriatic acid on hand, I can get more.
+ Once the algae is under control, you have to lower your calcium, because HEDP won't work properly with that much calcium in your water. That's a major process, too. Then I guess it not a bad thing that I don't have the HEDP yet.
+ You need to order polyquat, because that's the only thing you can leave in your water while you are messing with all the other stuff. I did add 32oz. of polyquat, so I guess this means I need more.
+ Once you have controlled the algae (not: eradicated -- that's probably not practical, right now!) and lowered the calcium, THEN you can tackle the stains. At this point I am putting stain removal on the back burner.
+ The only easier path I can think of, is drain and refill, BUT you need to (a) check on the cost, and (b) make sure it will help by testing your fill water and making sure IT doesn't have super high calcium, AND (c) check to make sure there aren't local restrictions on draining and refilling (you are in California, where such restrictions are common). Don't think our county has those restrictions, but I'll check.
+ To make SURE you are testing calcium correctly, please watch the Taylor calcium videos on this page: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?17157

OK I did that test now 3 times, 2 times with the instructions to counteract possible high metal ions interference.
I got regular test; 875ppm
interference test; 750ppm both times.


So . . . it's up to you. What do you choose to do?

Just to check I tested the source water;

FC- 0.5
CC- 0.5
pH- 8.0
TA- 75
CH- 75

So our water is a little hard but not much and it looks like the test is good. Could limestone have been leaching into the pool water for a long time? Could this cause such high calcium? We do need to re-plaster soon, we figured we'd do it next summer. If that's the problem with the calcium levels, maybe we'll just try to get rid of the algae and forget the stains, etc. and re-plaster this fall. sigh

Thanks for all the advice, sorry if I sounded impatient, etc. I know everyone is just trying to help and I do appreciate it. I am trying really hard to convince my husband to give up on the pool chlorine and just get plain bleach. He doesn't see the difference even though he admits the Home Depot chlorine is probably weak this time of the summer. We don't use the pool store.
He's figuring that the Walmart pool chlorine has been inside the air conditioned store so it's gonna be better. But I also noticed that the plastic bottles the pool chlorine is packaged in is much thinner than bleach bottles, so it could leach just from that I think even inside a cool store. So I'll get the plain bleach Monday. Thanks again.