Results of Ascorbic Acid Treatment for Stains

[Cookieman]

Pool has a vinyl liner with fiberglass steps, so there is no plaster in the pool. Pump has been running 24/7 since I first attempted the AA method in mid July. The steps are the first place I notice any stain reappearance, and I do have a return directed to the steps mostly to move leaves toward the skimmer.

I believe the cloudiness originally began with the double dose of the HEDP after AA cleared the stains. I had gotten feedback that I may not have used enough HEDP on the first try. Cloudiness cleared in about 4 days. Water clarity now is very good. Still keeping ph low at 7.0.

[PoolDoc]

Sorry about the plaster mistake.

1. Do you know which brand HEDP you added, and how much you put in, when the cloudiness occurred?

2. Can you put a handful of chlorine powder on the steps, and see if that forces a stain re-appearance?

[Cookieman]

I used 5 quarts of the Kem-Tek Metal Eliminator from Amazon the procedure recommended. Normal dose per bottle instructions is 2.5 qts. This was only time any of the the HEDP products produced any cloudiness, but other additions have been recommended dose or maintenance dose. I have also used Jack's Magic Pink Stuff - dosage is same as KemTek.

I can try this, but will have to find the chorine powder. Get this as Pool Store? Also been thinking about opening up the 1.0 PPM Culator that has been in skimmer for a month to see if ball color will indicate what metal it may be picking up. Still have the 4.5 in there from a couple of weeks ago. These don't seem to be doing much for me. Thoughts?

[PoolDoc]

I have also used Jack's Magic Pink Stuff - dosage is same as KemTek.

That's very puzzling to me. None of the products actually list the % HEDP, but the Pink Stuff has a specific gravity that corresponds to 60% HEDP, and the KemTek product has a specific gravity that corresponds to 20% HEDP. I'm going to need to do some testing of those directly, but I'll wait till next spring, since they can change formulation without notice.

I can try this, but will have to find the chorine powder. Get this as Pool Store?

Also been thinking about opening up the 1.0 PPM Culator that has been in skimmer for a month to see if ball color will indicate what metal it may be picking up. Still have the 4.5 in there from a couple of weeks ago. These don't seem to be doing much for me.

Don't open them; you can see color through the bag when they are wet. If they aren't doing anything, and you are circulating 24/7, that pretty definitively indicates there are not metals in the water.

Of course the trick is to get the stains dissolved and INTO the water, where the CuLator can grab the metal. It sounds like in your case, the stains may have dissolved, but never migrated into the water. That's not an outcome I'd have expected.

It would be possible to try using ascorbic acid, muriatic acid, and STMP (a phosphate detergent), to lower the pH, dissolve the metals and get them INTO the pool water. But, you'd end up with some ferocious phosphate levels later, and I'm not sure how much that would increase your pool's tendency to get algae. PLUS, I'm not sure how well it would work.

You could try it on a spot basis.

Another possibility, especially since the stains are on your steps, would be to actually scrub a spot on the steps with a wash rag saturated in an AA solution. It's possible that that approach would actually end up with the metals IN the pool water.

. . . As you can tell, I don't know!

Changing direction a bit, I don't know if you are in the market for a waterproof sport camera, but if you are, I'd love it if you got one, took pictures, and posted them. I've got this camera on order:

Pentax Optio WG-2

but haven't tested it myself yet. However it's supposed to do especially well with macro photos, since it has a built in LED ring light. Here are some reviews:
2012: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-6501_7-57428068-95/
2011: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q311...mpactgrouptest

So . . . if you think you might be getting a camera like that anytime soon, I love to encourage you to get it before you close your pool, and take pictures.

[Cookieman]

Sorry for the delay responding, but had a lot going on lately. Looks like a nice camera, but I am going to invest in determining what will work on my staining problems. Thanks anyway.

[mbar]

Did you try to use a magic eraser? If the stains are only on the steps you might want to try one just to see if the stain is really on the fiberglass or just lying on top of the fiberglass. I also noticed one time when I had some stains and my ph was high, I added muriatic acid by the stain and it disappeared. You may just have to run your pool at a lower ph. You just don't want to go under 7.0. It just seems strange to me that the stains are only on the steps.

[Cookieman]

I have kept the ph low - 7.0 - 7.1 since trying the ascorbic acid treatment the second time. I did try the magic eraser on the steps one time when level got low enough. Some came off, but very difficult. I had an interesting conversation with a technician at JacksMagic. Filled her in on issue and gave her my numbers. When she heard calcium was only 90, she said Jack's products need calcium levels of 200-400 to work best as it gives it something for the metal to bind to. First I had heard of that. She believed that is why even double dosing did not sequester all the metal. I asked her about the sequestering test kit (JimK used one to determine if he had enough HEDP in his pool), but she did not try to sell it to me, but recommeded trying to raise calcium level first. Any thoughts? Any chorine now higher than 3.0 -3.5 makes the staining worse. Just been adding small amounts of AA to keep stains at bay temporarily until I can find out how to make the HEDP work. If the calcium addition sounds reasonable to the forum experts, where is best place to purchase it or brand (if it matters). Will calcium addition affect PH?

[JimK]

I have kept the ph low - 7.0 - 7.1 since trying the ascorbic acid treatment the second time. I did try the magic eraser on the steps one time when level got low enough. Some came off, but very difficult. I had an interesting conversation with a technician at JacksMagic. Filled her in on issue and gave her my numbers. When she heard calcium was only 90, she said Jack's products need calcium levels of 200-400 to work best as it gives it something for the metal to bind to. First I had heard of that. She believed that is why even double dosing did not sequester all the metal. I asked her about the sequestering test kit (JimK used one to determine if he had enough HEDP in his pool), but she did not try to sell it to me, but recommeded trying to raise calcium level first. Any thoughts? Any chorine now higher than 3.0 -3.5 makes the staining worse. Just been adding small amounts of AA to keep stains at bay temporarily until I can find out how to make the HEDP work. If the calcium addition sounds reasonable to the forum experts, where is best place to purchase it or brand (if it matters). Will calcium addition affect PH?

Interesting. When I was dealing with my metal staining issues I contacted Jack's Magic a few times and don't remember him asking about my calcium level, which usually checks out at 200-250 (but then again that was several years ago, so I'm not sure).

[mbar]

This is only from my experience, I do not have a chemistry degree. One thing I noticed is when the pool gets milky white after the ascorbic acid treatment the stains don't tend to come back. I think it is when the calcium binds with the HEDP and then it turns the pool milky. It does filter out eventually, which is why I think that the stains don't come back - the metals are filtered out with the mess. I know that I have had to use a lot of ascorbic acid this year, and I never had the milky mess. I also did not have my calcium any higher than 250, so maybe I did not saturate the water enough, and my calcium didn't drop much. Other years my calcium dropped about 150ppms. I don't know which is worse, or more expensive. I usually use a floccing agent when I get the milky water (after about a day). So that is expensive, the calcium is expensive, and the HEDP is expensive. It is your call, but if the stains are only on the steps I would just put some ascorbic acid in a sock and rub it on the steps. I am just wondering if it is only on the steps, or maybe you don't see the stains on the liner. Is your water blue, or does it have a greenish tint to it? I have a white fiberglass pool, and when I have staining it turns the pool yellow, so blue and yellow make green - which gives my water a slight green tint. It isn't very noticeable, but since I am a stain nazi I can pick it out right away.

[PoolDoc]

When she heard calcium was only 90, she said Jack's products need calcium levels of 200-400 to work best as it gives it something for the metal to bind to. First I had heard of that. She believed that is why even double dosing did not sequester all the metal. . . . . Will calcium addition affect PH?

Last first: adding calcium (chloride) will not affect the pH much, if at all.

Regarding the "calcium giving the metal something to bind to" . . . She may be referring to something real, but not as stated. Calcium is ALSO a metal, and you can't bind iron to another metal in pool water. That is, you're not going to form something like ferric calcium.

BUT, I know from my own experience that having calcium carbonate -- marble dust, plaster dust, or cal hypo residue -- DOES collect metal out of the water. Essentially, you end up staining the dust, instead of the pool.

The whole "HEDP needs calcium" to work doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't really fit with the old Monsanto Dequest manuals I have, but then I don't understand chelation chemistry at any fundamental level. So, again, it's possible she's referring to something real, but with a slightly bogus explanation

One thing I noticed is when the pool gets milky white after the ascorbic acid treatment the stains don't tend to come back. I think it is when the calcium binds with the HEDP and then it turns the pool milky.

That's interesting, Marie, but I have no idea why that would be happening. I'm going to ask Chem_Geek to read through your's and Cookieman's posts and this thread, and see if he has any possible analytical explanation of what might be going on. It's a whole lot easier to make good recommendations, when you understand what's happening. . . and why!