Green Hair Problem After Using Bioguard Smart Shock

[PoolDoc]

I am intrigued now, and am wondering exactly how my mind will be messed with - if you have time and would like to dish about how I can run the pool with this high CYA, I'd love to learn.

The reason it will mess with your mind, is that running with CYA this high is contrary to guidelines EVERYWHERE, and I do mean EVERYWHERE, including here. I've been cautiously inching toward offering this as a possible solution, as I've been able to collect bits and pieces of data. In fact I'm currently operating a large public pool at around 120 ppm CYA.

But, I haven't re-written everything here and on PoolSolutions to reflect that, and the fact is I'm not 100% sure that some problem won't crop up, that ends up with the conclusion that maybe this wasn't such a good idea ofter all. But so far, everything I've found suggests that it IS a perfectly valid option. It's definitely working well at the public pool.

There are two problems that do exist.

First, in order to reach effective shock levels, you'll have to take your chlorine level above 100 ppm. That's can be an issue. It's hard to test, and can rapidly consume your testing reagents. Of course, you won't have to test often, since it won't come down very fast. And, that's another problem: at 100 ppm, you can forget about wearing fancy swimwear, and you may -- I'm not sure -- have some eye irritation. But, once you're there, you may only drop at the rate of 10 - 15 ppm per week, so it could take 3 -4 weeks to get back to non-shock levels!

Second, pH testing may be screwed up. Actually, we're being to think that that is NOT a problem, IF you take your pH reading quickly. But, we're not 100% sure, and if it DOES screw up pH testing, you'll either have to use an adapted test (with distilled water) OR you'll have to to get a pH meter (~$75, with buffers and such.)

Nevertheless, if I were you, I'd go ahead with the HiC2 (high chlorine + high CYA) approach. Here's what I'd recommend for you, based on your current situation, with some copper problems.

1. Use up any remaining tabs (they are hard to dispose of otherwise, and at this point, won't change the problem much.)
2. Add polyquat to improve filtration AND prevent algae, before we start taking your chlorine really high.
3. Add HEDP to keep the copper from staining AND to make it available to the CuLater units.
4. Add CuLator units to REMOVE the copper completely from your pool water.
5. Convert your pool to a borate protected pool to reduce algae problems (60 ppm borates, from 20 Mule Team borax + muriatic acid)
6. After all this is complete, and the CuLator units have been in place for 3 weeks, switch to high chlorine levels, and stop using polyquat & HEDP.
7. Purchase -- but do not use -- sufficient sodium bromide to allow you to deal with an algae outbreak WITHOUT extremely high chlorine levels. (Sodium bromide is converted to bromine by the chlorine, but bromine is NOT affected by stabilizer. We're going to try to avoid needed it, since it will create a much higher chlorine loss rate for a week or two after it's used. However, if you need it, you don't want to have to wait, so you need it on hand.)
8. Once you make the switch to high chlorine, you'll pretty much need to ignore advice from anyone but me, since most of the support team here is still pretty inexperienced with this. Janet (aylad) runs her home pool in the 80 - 100 ppm CYA range, so she's less so. But, you'll need to NOT panic if you post, and someone here is like, "OMG, you've got to drain right away!!"

The basic strategy is to
(a) use up your existing chlorine AND get rid of the copper.
(b) avoid algae problems during this period.
(c) add borates to reduce the chance of algae problems
(d) keep bromide on hand as 'bail-out' solution, that doesn't require 100 ppm levels of chlorine.
(e) switch to NORMAL chlorine levels that range from 20 - 35 ppm. You'll want to pick 1 day per week to raise levels BACK to 30 - 35 ppm, and then let if fall for a week.

I'd guess you'll spend $250 or so to add the borax, get the HEDP and CuLator units, and get the sodium bromide. The borax is a good idea in any case, and you need the HEDP & Culator for clean up, regardless. So, the only additional expenses are for the sodium bromide, which will be maybe $30.

You will need to decide how you will chlorinate. You have 3 options: a SWCG, bleach, or calcium hypochlorite. With a 30k gal pool, adding a weekly 10 - 15 ppm dose of chlorine with 6% household bleach will take 5 - 8 gallons of bleach each week. If you can get an 50# container of calcium hypochlorite, that will work for you, but again, you'll have to follow some very particular directions about how to use it, to avoid excessive calcium build up. Currently (and that may change), it's available at Amazon

In The Swim Cal-Chlor Pool Chlorine Granules 50 lbs.

for about $145 delivered. You'd need about 3.5 - 5 lbs per week at ~$3/lb which would be cheaper than the bleach.

NOTE: your actual chlorine usage may be less than what I'm saying, but again, we just don't have the experience to be sure.

I'm going to go ahead and put all the links below, but if you get started, let me know, so we can tweak this.

Polyquat (3 quarts)
Using polyquat during metal clean up accomplishes two things: it helps kill or prevent algae, letting you run lower chlorine levels, and it is a very good clarifier, that helps you filter out any small metal particles that may form.(Probably available from pool stores, and possibly some big box stores -- but you MUST learn to ID it correctly. See the polyquat page for more info.)

Kem-Tek 60% polyquat @ Amazon
Nava 60% polyquat @ Amazon

HEDP (1 quart 60% or 2 quarts 20%)
HEDP is a liquid phosphonate that is pretty chlorine stable, and very good at keeping dissolved metals IN the water, instead of ON your pool surfaces. It can lift recent stains, OR it can be used along side of ascorbic acid, to keep the metals in the water, after the ascorbic acid is consumed by chlorine.

Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP) @ Amazon
20% KemTek HEDP @ Amazon

Culator + skimmer sock
The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)

1 ppm Culator @ Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

Borax (29 boxes of 20 Mule team + 8 gallons of muriatic acid)
Borax also can help control algae, but you have to add a LOT. It ends up costing around $50 per 10,000 gallons of pool water, for borax and muriatic acid, if you buy your borax at Walmart and your muriatic acid at Lowes. Soda ash is now frequently available at Walmart in the detergent section, at prices MUCH cheaper than the pool prices for the same chemical. If you ALSO need to raise your alkalinity, you can buy that instead. But if your alkalintiy is high enough, and you only need to raise your pH, it's better to use borax:

20 Mule Team Borax @ Walmart
Muriatic acid @ Lowes (do not get the 'safer' muriatic acid; do read the "Using Muriatic Acid" sticky)

Bromide (4 lbs)
+ Be VERY careful about bromide, if you try to buy it elsewhere. There are multiple version of granular "yellow algae" treatments. Some contain sodium bromide; some contain ammonium chlorine, which is completely different and not desirable; some contain bromide PLUS phosphates.

Nava Chemicals 652072097 Yellow Algae Remover, 2-Pound Bottle @ Amazon
Tropi Clear TC-4402-1 2-Pound Yellow Eliminator @ Amazon

Bleach or cal hypo
If you get ready to buy cal hypo, and the link I gave you is dead, let me find some more for you. Cal hypo, like all other chlorine products, is now being commonly blended with 'goop' and that's NOT what you want!

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben,

Thank you for taking the time to help with the copper & CYA problem. Based on the above, I have a couple of questions & comments:

1. Comment: I will be using liquid chlorine at 10% - that is what is available at my local hardware store for the best $$
2. Based on the above, how much should I be adding to the pool?
3. The HEDP & Culator products work together to remove the copper, is that correct?
4. Can copper cause a yellowish stain on the pool, or would it be greenish? I have some mild yellow staining on my liner and steps this year. I am thinking it is either from copper, calcium (since high hardness), or possibly some other chemical in the pool.
5. I have the BioGuard Algicide that is not polyquat - it is the other (I think it is termed as just quat?). What is the disadvantage with the product that I am currently using, other than foaming (which isn't really an issue in my pool)?
6. Can I just add a bunch of bleach to increase my chlorine level? There are a lot of other chemicals listed above, and I'm wondering what the benefit is to having them/using them. Specifically, the borates and the bromide are what I am wondering about.

Here are the stats for my pool this morning:

FC = 6 ppm
CC = 0 (not sure if I did the reading wrong the other day, or if it can correct itself that quickly on its own)
pH = 7.4
I am sure that my calcium hardness is still high at 420, and CYA hasn't changed, of course. Alkalinity I did not test for today, but I can go out and do that if you need that information.

[PoolDoc]

1. Comment: I will be using liquid chlorine at 10% - that is what is available at my local hardware store for the best $$

We'll need to verify that it IS 10%. It probably WAS 10% when it was bottled, but if it's not stored well, it may not be even 6%. We can roughly verify it using 2 bottles of 10%, 2 bottles of Walmart brand 6% and the K2006.

2. Based on the above, how much should I be adding to the pool?

I had to check the chart and pool dimensions; based on your dimensions, your correct volume is probably around 21,000 gallons, and your PF is 5.5. So, 1 gallons of 6% bleach would add about 2.7 ppm of chlorine to your pool.

What your level should be depends on
1. the decision you make about your direction
2. whether you want to remove the copper, or ignore it. (High chlorine makes stains more likely)
3. whether there is now any algae in your pool.

3. The HEDP & Culator products work together to remove the copper, is that correct?

Yes, the HEDP keeps it in a dissolved form, and the Culator removes dissolved metals.

4. Can copper cause a yellowish stain on the pool, or would it be greenish? I have some mild yellow staining on my liner and steps this year. I am thinking it is either from copper, calcium (since high hardness), or possibly some other chemical in the pool.

It's not copper. If it brushes off and then returns, it might be mustard algae - but that usually appears only where it's shaded and there is no foot traffic. It might be iron, in which case dropping a vitamin C tablet on a stained area will clear a small spot.

5. I have the BioGuard Algicide that is not polyquat - it is the other (I think it is termed as just quat?). What is the disadvantage with the product that I am currently using, other than foaming (which isn't really an issue in my pool)?

If there's not enough to foam, there's probably not enough to have any effect at all -- EXCEPT to use up chlorine and form chloramines.

6. Can I just add a bunch of bleach to increase my chlorine level?

Yes.

There are a lot of other chemicals listed above, and I'm wondering what the benefit is to having them/using them. Specifically, the borates and the bromide are what I am wondering about.

Each of those has specific purpose that will NOT be replaced by a bunch of bleach. This is where part of the mind bending comes. You need to re-read my post and try to understand WHY I recommend using each one. If you DON'T understand, it's likely you won't be able to follow through effectively . . . and I'd rather go more conventionally.

If you get all THESE items, and supply your own full diameter hose (no tiny kinking hoses!), you can drain and refill with no risk to your liner:

Defender 8-Year 35-Feet x 55-Feet Rectangular In-Ground Winter Cover @ Amazon
Little Giant 5-MSPR 1/6 Horsepower Permanently Lubricated Submersible Pump
Wellington G1008S0600 Solid Braid Nylon Rope, @ Amazon (yes, you will need that much rope!)
(2) Set of 12 Large 10" Galvanized Steel Tent Peg Stake @ Amazon
Yellow Jacket 2884 12/3 Heavy-Duty 15-Amp SJTW @ Amazon
(if you use your own, make sure it's big enough so the pump motor doesn't burn up)
Gilmour 10 Series 8 Ply Flexogen Hose 5/8 Inch x 60 Feet
(you'll need 1 hose to fill with, and 1 to drain with, since you'll be doing BOTH at the same time!)

for the cost of the water plus $200 - $300, depending on how much of the above you already have.

[SnoopysGirl]

Ben, thanks again for the reply. Sorry I didn't see it until now.

I did re-read through your previous post and the new post. I will not be draining my pool at this time, as I mentioned that we have a bigger concrete pool decking issue and may be draining anyway at the end of the season.

I will purchase the HEDP & polyquat algicide, and the 10% bleach product - the bleach is sold by my local hardware store, and the staff at large pool in our area purchases it to chlorinate their pool, so I am going to assume that it is fairly "fresh."

I do not believe that the staining on the steps and liner is algae, as it doesn't move at all when swept. I am very good at sweeping the pool at the very least once a week, and more often if I have more swimmers in the pool. The things I have done differently this year is shocked the pool more frequently with the BioGuard Smart Shock, had the pool open and exposed to more sunlight than last year (there is an automatic cover on the pool, and it is now non-functional because of above mentioned pool deck problem), and used new BioGuard pool pucks (just started using those approximately 3 weeks ago now). I have looked around and I see that there are some tests I can administer to determine the stain type. I will try those and get back to you with results.

Today:

pH 7.4
FC 6.2
CC 0.2

[PoolDoc]

I have looked around and I see that there are some tests I can administer to determine the stain type. I will try those and get back to you with results.

Try this one, first:

If it brushes off and then returns, it might be mustard algae - but that usually appears only where it's shaded and there is no foot traffic. It might be iron, in which case dropping a vitamin C tablet on a stained area will clear a small spot.

Also, you *really* need better testing. I'm going to post some links and standard kit info below, but you need to know your calcium, alkalinity and stabilizer levels, with reasonable accuracy . . . and that means a kit, not strips, especially with stabilizer. The stabilizer test is not all that accurate, with the kits, but it's almost meaningless with the strips.

================================================== ============
+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page )

One caution for the 2012 season: Amazon does not stock the kits directly. So when buying at Amazon, Amato is our current preferred seller. However, they often don't list enough stock to last the whole day, so try order mid-morning. You should expect a delivered cost under $60 for the K2006A and under $95 for the K2006C. If you can't find that, wait a day.

+ Here are links to the kits we recommend:

HTH 6-Way Test Kit @ Walmart
Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) @ Amazon

[SnoopysGirl]

I do have a drop test kit - the Taylor K2006A and I tested for alkalinity, hardness, and CYA on Wednesday. I printed off the Pool School Basic Pool Care schedule which recommended testing only chlorine and pH daily, TA and CH levels weekly, and CYA levels probably monthly (says seasonally, large water replacement). So, I have only been reporting to you my test that I have been performing daily. Tests that I performed on Wednesday are posted on that day.

In looking at the Best Guess Chlorine chart, and hoping that as I stop using the pucks, the CYA will gradually come down as my kids swim and I add water as my pool leaks (*sigh*), I see that I want to keep my FC at about 8-15 ppm.

I can't see what measurements I put in for my pool, but as we have a roman shaped pool and it is 38-40 ft long by 18 ft wide, and 3-8 ft deep, I am getting about 28-29,000 gallons.

How does one figure out ppm in adding liquid chlorine? As soon as the remaining pucks dissolve I am going to start using the liquid.

[PoolDoc]

To figure out ppm per gallon of bleach or LC, you need 3 factors:

1. The PF (pool factor) -- yours is 5.5
2. The % of chlorine in the bleach you have (2, 2.75, 3, 6, 10, 12.5)
3. The approximate weight per gallon -- use 8.5 lbs per gallon for bleach

So, for 6% household bleach, your calculation would be 5.5 x 0.06 x 8.5 = 2.8 ppm / gallon. Usually, I just remember that it's 0.5 lbs Cl2 equivalent per gallon of bleach (0.06 x 8.5), rather than calculating it. So, for 10% bleach, it would be 5.5 x 0.10 x 8.5 = 4.7 ppm, and for 12.5% it would be 5.8 ppm per gallon.

In actual fact, pool store chlorine, except in locations where they have their own bleach tank and get daily deliveries, will only rarely be up to the rated percent. Here's why:



What you are seeing is a pallet of 'liquid chlorine' stored at the doorway of an SCP warehouse at over 90 degrees F. Those pallets come in early May and are stored at warehouse temps for a month or more . . . BEFORE they arrive at the pool store. This picture was taken in May 2011, but there was a pallet sitting in the exact same spot this July, on the day it hit 107! *THAT* bleach probably was less than 4% strength by the time some poor sucker bought it.

It's not deliberate -- I've never talked to anyone at SCP or locally that understood how rapidly bleach breaks down at high temps. But, whether they understand or not, hot bleach still breaks down. By contrast big-box store bleach (a) has to more pure, to avoid laundry problems, so it breaks down more slowly at ANY temp, (b) rapidly transits the supply system, especially at Walmart, and (c) often stored in cooler or even air conditioned areas. So, it's MUCH more likely that 6% Walmart bleach is 6+% than it is that 10% pool store LC is going to be near 10%.