Convert indoor Baquacil pool to salt water chlorination?

[PoolDoc]

Chlorine is DEFINITELY more of a problem for indoor structures than Baquacil. And, if you don't have continuous fresh air ventilation, the damage, especially to wiring, can be severe.

I have extensive experience with indoor commercial pools . . . and have chosen to stay away from that topic here, because most owners find the information we provide complex enough . . . but managing indoor chlorinated pools is MUCH more complicated, with much less certain results.

Honestly, the more you describe your situation, the more inclined I am to recommend that you STAY on Baquacil, as long as no one but your family uses it. (Baquacil is NOT an adequate sanitizer in a commercial environment). Baquacil can be used successfully long term, if you do two things:

1. Replace 1/3 to 1/2 of your pool water every 6 months of use.
2. Replace 100% of your filter media (sand or cartridge) every 12 months of use.

It does NOT sound like you have an enclosure that was properly designed for a pool room. You are likely to have problems regardless, especially if the pool room walls are exposed to winter temps. You should inspect for corrosion and wiring damage REGARDLESS. But, if you use chlorine, the lack of a properly designed enclosure may well become critical.

Sorry . . .

[cchase009]

Thanks PoolDoc. I was under the assumption the SWCG woulld keep the chlorine @ a very low level - is this not so? Would 1 -3 ppm be too much for an indoor pool? The pool store recommended those levels.

If I stay on Bacquacil, how do I get rid of the current condition? Drain and replace? If so, how do I go about clearing the pipes?

Regards,

C. Chase

[PoolDoc]

Low levels of chlorine don't necessarily affect the problem - you STILL have to add enough to react with the people goo. The only things that reduce that is to allow the pool to be used only by people with non-oily skin, who don't sweat and never pee in the pool or use skin lotion. (So, showering and peeing first, can make BIG difference.)

By the way, never, ever let a former competitive swimmer in your pool . . . unless you SEE them pee before they swim. They are ALL in the habit of peeing in the pool, a practice enforced by coaches who demand uninterrupted 2 hour practices by fully hydrated swimmers! (I'm speaking, as the father of two competitive swimmers, and the uncle of a third who has newly achieved national rank.)

To get rid of water mold, enough peroxide and algaecide will do it, but I can't tell you how much is enough. Here's what I'd recommend though:

1. Drain 100% of your pool (if the ground is dry enough so there's no risk of 'floating' the pool!)
2. Replace your sand.

=================================
Working on the chemical guide -- will return to this.
http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/BAQ...t_up_49309.pdf

[cchase009]

Thank you.

[PoolDoc]

IMPORTANT:
If you are reading this, and are NOT the original poster, you need to know that this applies to an INDOOR CONCRETE pool. While this could be readily adapted to an outdoor pool, there are several cautions to be observed.
+ FIRST, only concrete pools in DRY ground can safely be drained. Other pools -- especially vinyl pools -- require special methods, tools, or precautions.
+ SECOND, we don't recommend PHMB water treatment. If it works for you, that's fine, but it's expensive, more complicated than advertised, and is NOT a full spectrum sanitizer, because it is ineffective against viruses..
+ THIRD, Baquacil CDX complicates things in ways we don't understand. It contains DHM, dimethyl hydantoin, a chemical first used in pools as the basis of bromine tablets. It has a history of causing problems in pools, beyond the problems PHMB (Baquacil) already has.

The approach below uses everything possible to create an inhospitable environment for water mold while avoiding chemicals that make things unpleasant for people. BUT it is NOT a magic bullet. Once you've had water mold, you must remain vigilant to make sure you don't get it again. Water mold / white mold is an out-of-control biofilm, and these are notoriously hard to eradicate. Doing so requires making sure the needed PHYSICAL cleaning is taking place, by brushing, vacuuming, and filter maintenance, as well as maintaining higher than normal chemical levels (60+ ppm of peroxide, PHMB, and borates), AND replacing the standard algaecide with polyquat (aka Baquacil Performance Algaecide).

1. Drain 100% of your pool (if the ground is dry enough so there's no risk of 'floating' the pool!)
   
   
2. Replace your sand.
   
   
3. Backflush your lines into the pool, by running water into your filter or pump. Brush, spray, clean, rinse everything you can and re-drain remnants. Pour 1:3 mix of 6% bleach + water into skimmer, pump, filter (after replacing sand!), pipes, and main drain. If you have a light, take it out, and clean behind light. Allow bleach to stand overnight. Re-rinse & redrain.
   
   
4. Order
   + a bottle of Softswim 4-Way Test Strips @ Amazon
   + Taylor K-2005 Complete Test Kit - High Range @ Amazon (not our normal K-2006)
   + bottle of Lamotte Insta Test Borate test strips (NOT @ Amazon)
   
   
5. Order or purchase
   + (4) quarts of polyquat algaecide ( = Baquacil Performance Algicide) [ 7 ppm per quart ]

   Kem-Tek 60% polyquat @ Amazon
   Nava 60% polyquat @ Amazon

   + (2) lbs of EDTA stain / scale control ( = Baquacil Metal Control) @ Amazon
   
   + (12) gallons of 27% peroxide ( = Baquacil Oxidizer) [ 10 ppm per gallon ] @ Amazon Splashes / Aqua-Silk
   
   + (1) lb sodium thiosulfate ( = Baquacil Chlorine Neutralizer) @ Amazon
   
   + (25) boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax ( = Bioguard Optimizer) [ 2.6 ppm borates per box ] @ Walmart
   
   + (8) gallons of muriatic acid @ Lowes
   
   + (25) lbs of calcium chloride (unless you KNOW your fill water is 'hard') @ Amazon
   
   + (1) CuLator @ Amazon
   The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)

   1 ppm Culator @ Amazon
   1.5 ppm Culator sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
   4 ppm Culator sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
   Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

   + (10) gallons of 20% PHMB santizer ( = Baquacil or Softswim 'B') Splashes 4 gal / Aqua-Silk 1 gal / Softswim 2 gal [ 8 ppm per gallon ]
   
   
6. Add 6 ppm polyquat (3/4 quart) once pool is 1/8 full
   
   
7. Add 1 lb of sodium thiosulfate at 1/4 full.
   
   
8. Use muriatic acid as needed to hold pH to near 7.0, while filling.
   
   
9. Add borax as needed to keep pH above 6.8 (1/2 box doses)
   
   
10. Add 2 gallons of 27% peroxide at 1/4 full, and every 1/4 after (8 gallons total - 80 ppm)
    
    
11. Add 1 pound EDTA @ 1/2 full.
    
    
12. Begin circulating pool as soon as you can start pump (Operate pump 24/7).
    
    
13. Add 8 gallons of PHMB (64 ppm) once pump is running.
    
    
14. Add 2 gallons of muriatic acid to the POOL.
15. Immediately add 3 boxes of borax to your skimmers (SLOWLY, pump running).
    
    
16. Wait 2 hours, then test pH - add 1 box of borax if pH is below 6.8; add 1/2 gallon of acid if pH is above 7.4.
    
17. Repeat # 12, 13, & 14 till 22 boxes of borax have been added.
    
    
18. Adjust pH to near 7.2.
    
    
19. Put skimmer sock and CuLator in skimmer.
    
    
20. Brush, vacuum pool. Wait 24 hours. Backwash.
    
    
21. Keep pool at ~60+ PHMB & peroxide for at least 2 weeks. Check every 2 - 3 days.
    
    
22. Dose with 1/2 quart of polyquat 2x per week.
    
    
23. After 1 week, if there is no sign of water mold, begin adjusting calcium level

.

[PoolDoc]

Ok, done except for typos.

A couple of references:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?11784
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?17276
http://www.troublefreepool.com/baqua...da-t40559.html
http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/BAQ...t_up_49309.pdf
http://www.ultramodern.com/Bulletins/BUL-105.pdf

[PoolDoc]

cchase, if you end up following this, I'd be interested in total cost. It looked like it was gonna be very expensive. Maybe not as expensive as a Baquacil to chlorine conversion, followed by installation of a new SWCG system. But still, really expensive.

And, a caution. Do NOT think you can go at this a little at at time. With algae, and other messes, you have to kill it outright, or you end up wasting all your work and money. The approach I described uses everything I can, within the PHMB method: fresh uncontaminated water + new filter media + 60 ppm of PHMB, peroxide, & borates, plus 4 - 6 ppm of polyquat, + metal control. The ONLY thing left is to use the standard PHMB algaecide, which might help if you add enough to make the water soapy. But, it's bitter, foamy, and unpleasant to swim in.

The other white mold / water mold cleanup products try to add a halogen (bromine) without doing a full conversion. It's a mess.

Oh, one more thing. The low initial pH, + EDTA should solubilize any metals. Using the CuLator should strip them from the water. Since metals catalyze PHMB breakdown, using the CuLator to maintain very low metal levels should make BOTH your peroxide and your PHMB last longer. You can continue to use the bag so long as it's not gummed up or discolored.

Here's what the plastic beads look like, when they have collected metal from the water:

[cchase009]

All,

thanks for the recommendations. I read the thread ACIAM posted and it gave me an idea I'd like to run by you all.

My pool has a spa connected to it. I was able to drain and refill the spa and my spa has 4 return lines/jets. I have not run the pump since adding the water nor have I added any chemicals - the water in the spa is super clear while the water in the pool is not. I added 6500 gallons of water to the pool and spa with the majority going into the pool.

What I add the chlorine or sodium percarbonate to the spa only and run the pump and the blower for the jets? Could I knock out the goo in the filter and the plumbing for the spa with this method? If yes, then I only need to worry about the to returns and main drain for the pool as far as goo goes.

I am thinking the right way?

C. Chase