Moblaine's pool

[PoolDoc]

Hi Moblaine;

I put your test results in the spreadsheet visible at the 2nd link below. If you would, enter new results in the form at the first link. That will make it easier for us to keep up. If you do a set tomorrow, please include copper levels.

Pool History Form
Pool History Results

Regarding your pH, with most forms of chlorine, the pH will DROP as the chlorine is used up. I don't know if that's the case in your pool, or not. However, a fairly low pH is desirable while cleaning up copper.

But, I'm not clear: do you want to continue using the Frog product? If you don't mind the possible side effects, the copper does NOT hurt anything, sanitation wise, and it is algaecidal. The problem is, it is NOT a sanitizer, and you have to maintain higher chlorine levels than suggested, in order to maintain a sanitized pool.

[moblaine]

I'm new at this forum and wasn't sure but I think you wanted me to fill out those forms? When I open the Pool History Results it's mostly filled out so I filled out the Pool History Form. Let me know if I failed to do something I should have. Thanks for any help.

[PoolDoc]

Yeah, I entered the results you'd listed in post #5 above; if you could, please enter new results as you get them.

As far as being new -- everyone's new to this. It's something that just became possible, but that I've wanted to be able to do for a long time. I've just started setting up the spread sheets.

[moblaine]

Hi Ben, I will re-test tomorrow and add results. I tested for copper today and had none so will add those results to the chart.

Can you explain to me - Do I need to worry about the copper/Ph thing if I don't seem to have a copper problem?

Also, I am confused about the Frog question - are we both talking about the products from King Tech? A friend of my husband's installed our pool (he's in the installation business but doesn't sell chemicals). He has us using the same things he uses. Every year I insert a new Mineral Reservoir into the Frog but instead of paying an arm & a leg for their Bac Pacs, I just cut the bottom off and fill them with 1" or 3" tri-chlor tabs. What are the side effects you mention? Wouldn't the tri-chlor tabs BE a sanitizer? I apologize if I'm being slow to catch on here, it can be overwhelming. Thanks for your help.

[PoolDoc]

Can you explain to me - Do I need to worry about the copper/Ph thing if I don't seem to have a copper problem?

No. If you have 0.0 ppm copper, it's not an issue.

Also, I am confused about the Frog question - are we both talking about the products from King Tech? A friend of my husband's installed our pool (he's in the installation business but doesn't sell chemicals). He has us using the same things he uses. Every year I insert a new Mineral Reservoir into the Frog but instead of paying an arm & a leg for their Bac Pacs, I just cut the bottom off and fill them with 1" or 3" tri-chlor tabs. What are the side effects you mention? Wouldn't the tri-chlor tabs BE a sanitizer?

You're not 'using' the Frog, your 'abusing' it!

The mineral reservoir has copper in it. But I don't think it always succeeds at adding copper to the pool (in other words: it fails to work, which is good, but expensive).

You're sort of working around their program, using their feeder. You need to watch out for staining when you replace the mineral pack. However, if you are just using the plastic cartridge as a holder for your own tabs . . . why do you need a new one?

[moblaine]

No. If you have 0.0 ppm copper, it's not an issue.



You're not 'using' the Frog, your 'abusing' it!

The mineral reservoir has copper in it. But I don't think it always succeeds at adding copper to the pool (in other words: it fails to work, which is good, but expensive).

You're sort of working around their program, using their feeder. You need to watch out for staining when you replace the mineral pack. However, if you are just using the plastic cartridge as a holder for your own tabs . . . why do you need a new one?

Good point - what are the disadvantages to not using a mineral reservoir?

Also -you mentioned earlier adding "3 gallons, per 10K gallons of pool water, of PLAIN 6% household bleach each evening. Use an OTO kit to test before re-dosing; if you get a DARK yellow value in the evening, skip that dose."

Question: Is it put in during evening so that it can work without sunlight affecting it? I'm anxious to put it in now but can see the wisdom in waiting until tonight. It's supposed to rain heavily & possibly hail today, does that make a difference? Now that I have the K-2006 as opposed to using the OTO kit you mentioned, at what measurement do I stop putting in the 6% bleach? I just went to Wal-Mart & 2 large grocery stores in the nearest "city" and bought all the large containers of 6% bleach I could find. The price worked out to about $2/gallon but liquid chlorine can be bought with 12.5% from local hardware store for $4/gallon. Seems like the price is equal or am I missing something?

Borax was hard to find but I did locate 4 boxes at a grocery store. Is this also pertinent to add at night?

[BigDave]

You're right the 6% at $2.00/gallon and the 12.5% at $4.00/gallon are basically the same price per pound of chlorine. If you're clearing the shelves, there's no loss in clearing the 12.5% as well as the 6%. use the 12.5% first 'cause it won't last as long.

FWIW - my opinion - get rid of the Frog. At best, it will add copper which will cause you a problem later. Just say no to metal(mineral) algae control. It doesn't kill fecal coliform, only algae. We can eaisily see when algae gets out of control, but, butt bacteria you can't see, but, it'll make you really sick.

[moblaine]

FWIW - my opinion - get rid of the Frog. At best, it will add copper which will cause you a problem later. Just say no to metal(mineral) algae control. It doesn't kill fecal coliform, only algae. We can eaisily see when algae gets out of control, but, butt bacteria you can't see, but, it'll make you really sick.

I contacted King Technology -- they tell me there is NO copper in their Mineral Reservoir. What do you make of that?

[PoolDoc]

I contacted King Technology -- they tell me there is NO copper in their Mineral Reservoir. What do you make of that?

image and quote from: http://www.kingtechnology.com/produc...s-poolfrog.htm; archived 7Jun2012
The POOL FROG® Mineral Reservoir, which contains our EPA registered mineral formula and fits inside the Cycler. The minerals continually replenish themselves for added protection against bacteria, as well as keeping your pool's pH balanced by acting as a neutralizer. One Mineral Reservoir will last the full season or up to 6 months; use two reservoirs for year-round pools.

In the pool industry, the term "minerals" has been applied to three things: copper, silver, and zinc. At effective levels, copper kills algae, inhibits bacteria a little, and stains hair and pools. At effective levels, silver inhibits algae, kills some bacteria slowly, and stains pools gray or black. I've seen no evidence to date that zinc can be added to pools at levels that are effective at anything . . . but it doesn't stain.

I'm going to try to look up the King Tech EPA registration, but it may be they've revised it to remove copper (which stains) and silver (which stains and is expensive) and left zinc (which AFAIK does nothing much). This allows them to keep the claim "minerals", charge more, and still not stain your pool. Of course, if they DON'T have copper or silver, then the question would be, why replace the unit . . . EVER?

Ok, I found it (below) -- the mineral pack is 99.5% inert and 0.5% AgCl, silver chloride. Now, that's interesting: silver chloride is not likely to stain your pool, because it's so very insoluble in water. The "efficacy" data (last link below) is also very interesting: in a glaring typo, not only does it ID the effective agent as "0.5% sodium chloride" (salt) in the front of the report, the efficacy data appears to me to show that the added silver has ZERO effect on sanitation.

I'm going to ask Chem_Geek to take a look, and see if it looks as weird to him, as it does to me; he's much more familiar with EPA registration standards.

But it appears to me that, when you purchase a "mineral reservoir", you are buying a product that's almost perfectly safe to use . . . because it does almost nothing!

Just a caution: this discussion is likely to get into deep technical waters, resulting in this thread moving to the "China Shop" section.

===================================
Found it:
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticide...PLS:4:0::NO::: - King Tech index
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticide...EG_NUM:53735-2 - Trichlor pack
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticide...P8_PUID:463787 - Mineral reservoir
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_sea...7-Oct-06_a.pdf - Efficacy data

All reports archived 07 June 2012 @ SwimmingPoolResearch

[aylad]

Borax was hard to find but I did locate 4 boxes at a grocery store. Is this also pertinent to add at night?

No, you can add Borax anytime you want...the sun doesn't break it down like it does the chlorine.