Intelliflo vs Whisperflo

[wendellb]

I have an older pool, maybe 20 yrs old. 20X40 9'deep. Hayward 244s filter. 2 jets. 2 skimmers. New liner. 1.5" pvc piping. 220v to pump motor. Hayward multiport valve.
My pump is old, noisy and leaking. It's on it's last leg. It's always been loud. I'm looking at a new, quieter, more efficient pump. Do I need to spend the extra money for an Intelliflo when a Whisperflo would work? Will my current setup accept an Intelliflo?

[PoolDoc]

You can get an Intelliflo with a self-timer, that doesn't need a controller. VFD pumps, like the Intelliflo, are sort of one-size-fits-all, because they can be tuned to your pool. (Of course, a lot people do NOT do this correctly!)

With the Whisperflo, you have select the right pump up front. From the specs you mention, a 3/4HP or 1HP 2 speed may well be what you want. This company seems to have a very good price, and has shipped well, the times I've purchased from them:

http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-61...ump/Detail.bok

A Whisperflo will be cheaper, more reliable, very quiet on low speed, and VERY efficient. (The Intelliflo IS a Whisperflo with a different motor!) It's better to get a small pump than an oversized one, UNLESS you have a spa or some other special equipment. However you'll need an external switch or timer for proper operation -- specifically, this one:

Intermatic T10604R Pool/Spa Control Center T106M and T104M
Southwire 55189301 3/4-Inch 6-Feet ULTRA Whip-Pre-Assembled with Wires and Connectors
Leviton 1282 15 Amp, 120/277 Volt, Toggle Double Throw @ Amazon

You usually can NOT get the timer locally -- and pool guys often can't pick the right one. The switch will be available at a local electrical supply house, but again, most pool guys can't pick the right one. Note: your electrician will have to add a 4th wire to the whip, for 2 speed operation.

[wendellb]

Follow up question:
Elsewhere on the internet I read that an Intermatic P1353 ME can be used for the timer. Are you familiar with is and how would it interact or attach with the parts list you gave me? Is it needed or would it replace the Intermatic T10604R?
I found all the parts you listed previously.
This has been a huge help. I will definately be going with the Whisperflo.

[PoolDoc]

=> Can you use the Intermatic P1353ME?
+ Yes, electrically, you can. I'm not sure if it will pass code or not, though.

=> Should you use the P1353ME?
+ It wouldn't be my first choice. One of the benefits of a 2-speed pool pump, over a variable speed pump is the fact that there are no electronics. Pool gear is more exposed to lightning and other stray currents than most household gear, and electronic controls -- unless Mil-Spec type hardening is included -- are generally MUCH more susceptible to stray currents then electromechanical controls. The replacement part cost for the electronics on a variable speed pump is so high, if you lose the electronics, you might as well toss the pump and buy a new one. But, there are two other issues, besides the vulnerability of a electronic timer, compared to an electro-mechanical one.

I'll try to add to this, later this morning.

[PoolDoc]

Still not finished, but here's the Mode 7 wiring diagram for the P1353ME:



When considering the level of the engineering behind this timer, this wiring diagram is not encouraging. If an electrician follows this diagram as drawn, he will wire in a dead short.

Here's why:

Normal electrical schematic convention is to show wiring connections as plain intersections -- usually, but not always with a DOT at the intersection -- and wiring CROSSINGS (no connection) with an inverted "U" or hump in the crossing wire. You can see just such a hump where the pump "COMMON" wire crosses one of the 240V "LINE" connections.

There SHOULD be another such inverted "U" at the point the jumper from the #3 terminal to the #5 terminal crosses the #4 terminal. The fact that the engineering staff let this serious wiring error reach publication speaks VERY poorly of the engineering safety and conscientiousness lying behind this unit.

And that's a problem.

With electromechanical units, they tend to to work right, or not at all. By contrast, electronic controls routinely enter the "brain-fried" mode, with erratic or unpredictable output: you've experienced this on your laptop or personal computer if you have used one much at all. On your computer, you just reboot. But, if this electronic timer -- engineered by guys who can't be bothered to get a basic schematic right -- goes into 'brain-fried' mode, you could smoke your pump motor.

[PoolDoc]

There's one more factor to consider.

Intermatic is an American brand. In fact, it's an American company. Even better, it's a family-owned American company, which means it's more likely to retain values such as corporate integrity and pride-of-product, than publicly held companies.

But, as best I can tell, it consists of three product lines:
1. Intermatic electromechanical timers and controls, plus a few Intermatic electronic controls.
2. Grasslin (a purchased German product line) electronic controls.
3. Electronic controllers like the P series units like the one you asked about.

The Intermatic time clocks are not elegant, but they've been around for years and -- I can assure from my own observations -- they RUN for years and years.

I have no personal experience with the Grasslin products, but they've been around for years, and give the appearance (and had the pricing!) of highly engineered and carefully manufactured German products.

And, then there are the others.

I don't know for sure, but they look to me like Chinese designed and Chinese made, but Intermatic labeled products.

Now, I'm typing this on a Microsoft wireless keyboard -- made in China -- using Microsoft wireless mouse -- made in China -- and using a PC with a case -- made in China and numerous PC components, all made in China. So, I need to show some respect. But my experience has been that American-engineered, Chinese-made, products can be very high quality, like the iPhone and the iPad. But my experience has also been that Chinese-engineered, and Chinese-made products are absolutely untrustworthy. The fact that Intermatic can't be bothered to get the schematics right, makes me suspect that they've also cut corners on the laborious and expensive import inspections AND on-site production inspections required to get high quality product from China.

Bottom line?

The P1353ME will probably work, but I wouldn't be willing to trust it enough to quite a job locally using it; I'd be too afraid I'd end up taking the hit for Chinese 'we-cut-every-corner-we-can' design and production.

[PoolDoc]

And, finally, there's a problem with the entire concept of the P1353ME.

With the T10406R, it's a little tricky to wire, but once it's in, it's done for the next 20 years. You can mis-set it, so the pump doesn't run when it's supposed to. You can mis-set it so it might not prime properly. But realistically, once you get it set properly, if you tighten the mechanical trippers down, it's SET for the next 20 years as well.

Pretty much the worst that can happen is that the clocks get off, and so the pumps come on at midnight, instead of 8am.

That is NOT the case with the Intermatic P1353ME. If you have wired for "Mode 7" (P-HI, P-LO, AUX) and accidentally leave it in "Mode 6" (AUX1, AUX2, AUX3), there is the possibility of powering the high speed winding and the low speed winding AT THE SAME time.

It gets worse. There are (3) different versions of the instructions for the P1353ME (as of May 2012). One shows 5 modes, one shows 6 modes, and one shows 7 modes:

FIVE MODES -http://www.poolandspacontrols.com/~/media/Files/PoolAndSpaControls/Products/Instructions/P1353ME.ashx
SIX MODES - http://www.poolandspacontrols.com/~/...PE45343RC.ashx
SEVEN MODES - http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/In...20Catalog.ashx

That pretty much tells you that there's trouble in customer support land.

Bottom line: I would recommend calling Intermatic (815-675-2321 or 815-675-7000 --www.poolandspacontrols.com) and asking them

1. Where is the P1353ME is manufactured?
2. Why the manuals for the unit show 5, 6, or 7 modes?
3. Where you can find UP-TO-DATE manuals?
4. Whether a T10604R or a P1353ME would be more reliable in a lightning prone area, like North Carolina.

[wendellb]

This is what I wanted to know. I hate to pay somebody to do something I can do myself. The T10406R is the way I'm going. I like the sound of the 20 yr part too. Speaking of lightening, our power was knocked out for 14 hrs just two days ago and a huge poplar got blown apart just a few hundred feet away.

Anyway, I'll digest all this info and do some parts searches. It looks like you've got me on the right path.

Many thanks!

[PoolDoc]

Good deal.

Once you have the timer and pump, running your wiring plan past Mark or me, before you hook it up --- unless you are an experienced controls electrician (in which case, you can help us!).

[wendellb]

Will do.