Spring opening cloudy pool excessively high PH > 8.2

[JuJuBee]

17 Apr 2012

Hello! Newbie here. O.k., I'm chatty so ...... I do have a current problem which I need advice on and will get to it after my "intro":

I'm really happy to have found this forum and motivated to save my moolah! (especially after taking huge paycuts two years ago due to economy and no increase in sight....) I'm a bit overwhelmed with all I've read so far, but it all makes logical sense. I don't have a problem understanding the chemistry and science behind it all. But I'm a bit week on mental organization so I'm going to continue following the advice to read, re-read, and then read again! until I can keep it all straight and in proper order.

I've always had diamond sparkling, crystal clear pool water whether it was our kiddie pools, quick-set pvc-frame pool or our in-ground liner pool. To say I'm overly fussy about my water is an understatement. Somewhere in my life I got the idea that my water had to look like it came from a perfect place in heaven.

We have used the company that installed our in-ground pool for opening and closing it since installation in 2007. We spend just under $1000 on opening costs including anywhere from $350-$450 of chemicals to take advantage of their spring "discount" (ahem....a savings of only $17.38 this yr :| ) Closing costs range from $450 - $500. Then we always have to purchase later in summer more silk sticks, granular chlorine or PH increaser or algaecide. Our yearly maintenance is over $2000 not adding in the increase in our water bill, gas or elec during those months.

For the most part, as your site says, the products do what they're suppose to do. However, they are pretty expensive (just the Chlor Silky Sticks 50lb cost $185 with spring discount.) But I have also noticed something about the routine I follow in using their chemicals (Bioguard & Natchem), and I am religious in my upkeep: it always yields water that is beautifu, yes, but very easily upset. Too easily. We have a strict weekend schedule where we vacuum the pool, backwash if necessary, then test and treat ph, chlorine and we include a treatment of algae preventor and a dose of Natchem Pool Perfect +Phos Free. Daily.... I shock if heavy swimming has taken place, I sometimes use the Viper auto vacuum for an hour or two if needed, and I always check the chlorine and PH levels so that I can catch any downturn as it's happening. Sounds overkill and I thought healthy pool water shouldn't require walking on eggshells if you stick to a consistent once-a-week care plan. Why am I so over attentive? Because when I have relaxed and let myself trust my weekend treatment, the water would get out of wack before the next weekend, sometimes as quickly as the 3rd day into the week. Then I struggle with getting my PH up (usually) or keeping my chlorine levels up to 1-3 ppm. Last year I went through hoards of chlorine - sticks, granular, & shock. It never seemed to keep and was always below 1 ppm by the next morning and many times even after being shocked the evening before. Two years before that, I went through buckets of their PH increaser in the spring and struggled to get it to stay over 7.2 the entire year (last year, my PH was easier to maintain.) I know weather can play a role in what is needed each year. I just don't believe that if you're as clean and neat as I am, and as consistent, that the water should so easily get out of wack.

Now - as for my problem this spring. Our pool is 32 x 16 with a 10 ft shallow end of 3-3.5 feet and a deep end of 5.5 - 6 feet. I've calculated the gallons of water is about 18,200? Our pool company advises us to keep our PH between 7.6 and 7.8 - a bit higher is better. We use them to open & close solely because we don't have the equipment to "blow out the pipes", etc. the way they can. We care about protecting our investment, the parts buried under the ground as well as the equipment above ground. We're too scared to brave opening and closing on our own knowing we are without backup savings at the present time and couldn't afford to "fix" anything from it not being done properly. (that's kind of problem #2 for this post)

It has been exactly 6 days since they opened our pool. Last year, it was clear and beautiful by day 3. This year, it is still cloudy/milky white and the PH continues to remain over 8.2. Having tried muratic acid the last time I dealt with cloudiness, I learned it works better, quicker and is much cheaper. Never again would I pay for PH decreaser. So my hubby poured 3/4 of the gallon into the pool. No change the next morning and it was still over 8.2. He poured the remainder of the bottle in the next day. It still tested over 8.2. We are just starting to see the bottom in the shallow end so it's slowly getting better, but still tests high PH. We can't really balance anything else until we get the PH below 8.2, right? Our chlorine fell rapidly over the past few days and now is just about 1 ppm. I told him to try the bottle of clarifier since mid-summer last year, I suddenly had a cloudy pool (but with lower PH of 7.2-7.6) and it didn't clear up until I used a clarifier ... then it was perfect the next morning. Not so this time.

I've poked around a bit on the forums but so far when I read about cloudy water, it always refers to getting the PH up to proper levels first. The tips page on cloudy water never mentions the scenario of extremely high PH that can't be brought down with a bottle of muratic acid. The temperatures have been warm this winter and spring so far. We have been averaging in the 60s but last week there were three days where we dipped to the low 30s at night but went up to 50 during the day. It's been just at 60 the past two days and it was 70s on Sunday before a big rain came in. We get down to the mid 40s at night.

Do I add more muratic acid? Is that safe to use that much? (just so you know, we do handle it safely...)

As for problem #2, being attached to them for opening and closing, they open with a Stow Away quart, an algaecide backup quart, a Natchem Spring Opening dose, and a spring pool shock treatment. For closing, our water tests before they treat were as follows:
2007 chlorine 1.0 PH 7.6 TA 150
2008 chlorine 0.0 PH 8.4 TA 180
2009 chlorine 0.0 PH 7.8 TA 240
2010 chlorine 0.0 PH 8.4 TA 240
2011 can't find the stupid bill...but most likely like 2010.
Then the company treats with a Winter shock treatment, Winter Algaecide 40, NatChem Fall closing dose, Anti-freeze.

Thanks, I look forward to your help and to learning as much as I can from all of you.

Sincerely,
JuJuBee

[aylad]

Wow--you do spend way too much time on caretaking for you to be having water problems that easily. Just out of curiousity, what is your calcium level? Do any of the chems the company used contain calcium? And what is your CYA level, both at closing and now?

Welcome to the group!

[JuJuBee]

Hi
thanks for the quick welcome! I haven't a clue about calcium levels or CYA. We have a test kit from the pool company that has 5 bottles and I don't believe they test for those things. We use it to test for chlorine, ph and total alkalinity. I'll have to look into getting the better kits you recommend on this site. I don't know what my closing levels were as far as CYA because they don't test for that at closing.

I'll check our chems' ingredients for calcium and reply back on that tomorrow.
Thank you!

[PoolDoc]

Hi JuJu;

A few quick notes:

1. Add more plain 6% household bleach BEFORE your pool turns green -- about 2 gallons at a time, added in the evening.
2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6!
3. Get the K-2006; this page explains details about getting kits: How-to-Get-the-Right-Testkits-for-your-Pool
Report complete results, once you have them.
4. Consider doing borates to 50 ppm (ie, BioGuard Optimizer). You'll need the test strips, about 15 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax, and about 5 gallons of muriatic acid. Borax makes a pool a bit more forgiving, and also, a bit more 'sparkly'.
5. Plan to lower your alkalinity -- you do this by lowering the pH to just under 7.0 and aerating . . . and then adding more acid as the pH rises.
6. One-time-per-week pool care is very much on the low end of things. You don't need to be so precise on everything, but you DO have to maintain an adequate chlorine level ALL the time. "Adequate" is determined by stabilizer level. Read the "Best Guess" page, for more. (Linked in my signature.)

About opening and closing: Opening requires no special equipment, in most cases. If you know what bits go where, you can do it yourself. If not, watch this year, and DIY next year.

[aylad]

2. LOWER THAT PH LEVEL! Get at least 2 gallons (see below about borax), and lower your pH to below 7.6!

Just to clarify, he's wanting you to get 2 gallons of muriatic acid to lower the pH--Borax raises it...

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Yes.

Thanks, Janet.

[JuJuBee]

18 Apr 2012

Thank you Doc and Janet - I'll get to work on all this right away and report back.
It's so nice to have a plan of action!!!

Judith

19 Apr 2012

Janet, we used an HTH 6-way test kit I bought 2 years ago that could check for CYA. I never used the kit...I only needed the phenol red bottle. When my husband transferred the cloudy solution to the CYA view tube, the black dot on the bottom never disappeared even when overflowing. I've already ordered the recommended test kit from Amazon and expect it should arrive today or tomorrow. I'll use that to check the CYA. Can't tell if my BioGuard products contain calcium. They don't list all the other ingredients anywhere on the containers and not even their websites. How can I find out exactly what ingredients are in a BioGuard product? (because I also want to check for Copper....)

Doc, my husband added only one gallon of the muriatic acid instead of two, (cuz he's a pessimist...) and this morning the pool water is still cloudy but it's a bright, clean blue. He should have added both gallons I'm assuming and I might add the second this morning.

We'll add the bleach this evening but I wanted to check with you first, is it o.k. to add regular chlorine bleach if we have the Bioguard Silk Sticks in our in-line chlorinator around the clock? Is there any problem with both types of chlorine in the pool together? (Sticks are trichlor......?)

I am reading about the borates thingy. What's your opinion of using BioGuard Optimizer over borax and acid? I know it's more expensive, but by the time I found somewhere to buy enough of the borax and acid, the price was only a $40 savings but the "steps" involved are more cumbersome initially. Is it just the price or are there some other things in the optimizer that don't belong? Can I continue to maintain borates with borax and acid after initially getting there with BioGuard???

Thanks! no rush, too cold to swim...

[PoolDoc]

How can I find out exactly what ingredients are in a BioGuard product? (because I also want to check for Copper....)

Tell me the EXACT product name; Waterbear and I have most of the MSDS sheets.

Doc, my husband added only one gallon of the muriatic acid instead of two, (cuz he's a pessimist...) and this morning the pool water is still cloudy but it's a bright, clean blue. He should have added both gallons I'm assuming and I might add the second this morning.

Since it's mixed, check the pH, first!

We'll add the bleach this evening but I wanted to check with you first, is it o.k. to add regular chlorine bleach if we have the Bioguard Silk Sticks in our in-line chlorinator around the clock? Is there any problem with both types of chlorine in the pool together? (Sticks are trichlor......?)

Yes, it's OK -- but it's good that you asked. Add the bleach directly to the pool -- when the pump is ON, and running. Yes, they are compatible, once they are in the water.

I am reading about the borates thingy. What's your opinion of using BioGuard Optimizer over borax and acid?

Optimizer *IS* just borax; you STILL have to add acid if you use it. (Actually, Optimizer is "5 mol borax" and 20 Mule Team is "10 mol borax". Without getting into the chemistry, the Optimizer is about 30% more concentrated than the 20 Mule Team borax.) BioGuard "Optimizer Plus" is a fairly neutral mix of borax and boric acid -- a good idea, by the way.

But, a 50 ppm borates level with Optimizer+ requires 28# per 10,000 gallons @ $4 / lb. That translates to over $200; way more than the borax + acid. I'm not sure what he's trying to pull, but he's gaming you.

Ask him if he will guarantee 50 ppm of borates -- by Lamotte Borate strips -- with his recommended dose? If he'll guarantee that his Optimzer+ dose will (a) be cheaper than borax plus acid and (b) deliver 50 ppm, it might be fun to go for it . . . but you'll have to fight with him, when your actual borate levels are lower than promised! By the way, the figures I gave you will take you to more like 70 ppm -- but I'm assuming some losses as the season progresses.

[JuJuBee]

19 Apr 2012

Pool Chemicals EXACT product names:

• -BioGuard Maintain Easy Shock & Swim - multi-purpose shock
• -BioGuard Inhibit Back Up - algae preventative & killer
• -BioGuard Maintain Silk Sticks with Silk Guard
• -BioGuard Sanitizer Super Soluble (old version)
• -BioGuard Maintain Super Soluble Sanitizer
• -BioGuard Off the Wall cleaner - thicker formula
• -E-Z Chlor pH Up
• -Pool Perfect+ Phos Free
• -Pool Pride pH increaser
• -HTH Clarifier
• -Pooltrine 60 Algaecide & Water Clarifier - Applied BioChecmists
• -Robarb Pool Specialties Back Wash
• -GLB Pool Care Vanquish - deposit control

Correction: Pool company did not offer to help with borates. I don't usually talk to them unless we have a problem. This year I posted on your site first. I just know we can buy BioBuard Optimizer Plus. I saw that 45 lbs was between $120-$124. The 8 lbs. would be another $25. I did buy the borate strips and expect them to arrive tomorrow with the test kit too.

[PoolDoc]

-BioGuard Maintain Easy Shock & Swim - multi-purpose shock => diluted dichlor -- needs to be disposed of in pool, LATER.
-BioGuard Inhibit Back Up - algae preventative & killer => cheap foamy algaecide -- do NOT use!
-BioGuard Maintain Silk Sticks with Silk Guard => trichlor + MYSTERY ingredients, probably copper or borax
-BioGuard Sanitizer Super Soluble (old version) => dichlor
-BioGuard Maintain Super Soluble Sanitizer => dichlor
-BioGuard Off the Wall cleaner - thicker formula => do not use! (or use in your toilet!)
-E-Z Chlor pH Up => sodium carbonate, washing soda
-Pool Perfect+ Phos Free => do not use!
-Pool Pride pH increaser => sodium carbonate, washing soda
-HTH Clarifier => OK to use, but do NOT overdose!!
-Pooltrine 60 Algaecide & Water Clarifier - Applied BioChemists => Polyquat -- good stuff; save for when you go on vacation
-Robarb Pool Specialties Back Wash => do not use, now! For sand filters only.
-GLB Pool Care Vanquish - deposit control => do not use, now! Mystery soup.