Freaking OUT! Brown stains on my gunite pool!

[dblomom]

OK, so I visited my Pool company and they checked my CYA for me....they say it's 100.
I have a call in to the county about the metal levels in the water-the Pool company also recommended I do that.
The Pool company is leaning towards iron (especially after the ascorbic "vitamin C" test I did and it turning the spot black and then disappearing) and they have recommended I do the following:
Check the pH and make sure it is b/w 7.0-7.4 and that the chlorine is 1.0 or under. With the pump on, add the "Simplicity" brand Spot Cleaner (after it's been mixed w/ water in a bucket). After an hour, add the "Simplicity" brand Super Metal Control. After another 4-8 hours, add "OMNI" brand Filter Aid. Then, take the filter apart and clean it (b/c I guess the iron is supposed to have been "trapped" in the filter after all of this is said and done).
I hope this sounds right b/c I spent a small fortune at the Pool company service dept. today. :-/

[PoolDoc]

Uh-h. You need to pick who's helping you on this. You'll end up with the worst of both worlds, going from here, to the store, and back to here.

I think maybe you didn't see some of the email replies. I'm going to add them here. I emailed Chem_Geek about what happened and here are his responses:

Nope. Ascorbic acid is acidic and a reducing agent. The brown turning black sound more like oxidation. I noticed you asked her for the brand — maybe there was something else in the Vitamin C tablet. Either that or maybe the ascorbic acid reduced iron but then there was extra chlorine that re-oxidized it black. Since the ascorbic acid was in a sock, that sounds most logical since it probably wasn’t enough to remove all the chlorine in the pool.

and

Normally, stains don’t reappear after even a local ascorbic acid treatment, but maybe this particular pool has a LOT of iron in it. Probably doing your technique of trying to capture the iron in the filter by raising the pH through the skimmer would work — assuming the filter is a sand filter that could be readily backwashed.

After he sent me those comments, I got your email about the black spot going away AND about the Vitamin C clearing the spot around the tablet. That made things fairly clear: you have iron stains. The vitamin C in a sock reduced the stains, in place, to a black "ferrous" iron state, but that gradually disappeared because ferrous iron soluble. The more direct application of vitamin C behaved in a more typical fashion.

If you're going to follow their program, that's fine. It sound similar to what I would have done, but I'm not sure because I'm just guessing at what the chemicals are. Also, the program they've got you on is likely to allow algae to grow, while you work on iron, and I'm not sure if that's what you want to do.

Regardless, do lower the pH. But, if you lower the chlorine to 1.0 with a CYA of 100 . . . your algae is going to take over, and the pool store should have known that and warned you.

Your choice though.

[dblomom]

Ben,
Thank you for all of the information!
One question I did have was regarding our ozone-chlorinator; the pool company told me today that with the ozone system, the likelihood of algae growth is minimal, which is why they felt comfortable with them advising to take our chlorine down so low. Do you know anything about the ozone system in regards to this? Like you stated in your reply, I really don't want the WORST of both worlds! But I spent quite some time with them (the pool guys) today and they had me feeling pretty confident in their plan when I left.
Thanks again!

Amy

[Watermom]

Let me give you some stuff to read about ozone issues. I think you'll change your mind.

http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/oz...sanitizer.html

[PoolDoc]

What model do you have? I'm not familiar with an "ozone-chlorinator". Chlorinators, yes. Ozonators, yes. But not ozone-chlorinators.

I'm sort of puzzled. One reason people selling ozonators try to keep chlorine levels low, is that otherwise, the chlorine will simply destroy all the ozone. Ozone and chlorine engage in mutual destruction reactions. But, you can't replace chlorine with ozone, because ozone is too toxic (MUCH more dangerous than chlorine gas) and too insoluble to use as a sanitizing residual. For this reason, US ozonators have VERY low output levels; European style ozonators, with much higher outputs, incorporate a de-ozonation state, for swimmer safety. By contrast, chlorine gas is freely soluble in water, and is severely irritating BEFORE it becomes dangerous.

The common practice in the pool industry is to take a product or method that has significant value in a limited application, and try to apply it everywhere:
+ UV irradiation has some application to INDOOR pools, and to public pools at high risk for amoebic infections -- but not on outdoor home pools.
+ Sodium bromide has some limited value to OUTDOOR pools with HIGH stabilizer levels, but no where else. But one chemical company tries to get it in ALL pools.
+ Phosphate removers can occasionally be helpful, but most pools don't need them.
+ Supplemental algicides are not needed on pools that maintain adequate chlorine levels, but pool stores sell them for use on EVERY pool.
+ Metal sequestrants can have a TEMPORARY value on pools that are removing or preventing stains, but have NO value for the majority of pools that have no metals.

. . . and ozone has some value in home spas, but has no value that we've been able to determine on outdoor home pools.

[dblomom]

Wow, thank you all for the information. This site is a wealth of knowledge but I will admit, I don't know a lot about any of this. After all of the information on here, I feel even more confused than ever. I really just want to swim in our pool, maintain it properly and prevent our children from growing a tail after being in the water. I feel completely ignorant and told someone the other day that I feel like I've bought a Lamborghini with no idea of how to drive a shift stick.
With that said, I am probably using the wrong terminology...our "Ozone Generator" is manufactured by SmartPure, Ultra Pure Water Quality Inc. and the pamphlet has our pool manufacturer stamped on it (as if it were manufactured by them, which it probably was not). The pamphlet has a "part #" stamped on it, but no model number. The Part # is 3404275.
I followed the pool company's direction on the steps for the metal removal...I still have the stains. They don't even appear to have been lifted a little bit.
Thanks, again. I know some of this is trial and error and I feel like I'm really getting the hang of the "error" part.

[waterbear]

SmartPure is the name that Blue Haven pools puts on their SWCGs, Ozone units, and Mineral cartridge systems. As to who actually makes them, it's anyone's guess. This way Blue Haven keeps people coming back to them (and keeps their profit margins up). Del Ozone does make a combo ozone/SWCG called the TrioPure and Autopilot makes the CoPilot addon ozone unit for their PoolPilto SWCGs. My monoy is on the unit being a Del Ozone one.

[PoolDoc]

I know some of this is trial and error and I feel like I'm really getting the hang of the "error" part.

I'll have to remember that one!

OK.

1. Turn off the ozone generator; it just complicates things. If you can get money back do so, but turn it off regardless.
2. See if you can get the HTH 6-way kit at your Walmart (check availability)
3. If not, get a cheap OTO/phenol red test kit. You'll still need the K2006 (see the test kit info page in my sig), but the regular suppliers are currently out.
4. Lower your pH to near 7.0, using muriatic acid (guide page linked in my sig). Keep it in the 7.0 - 7.2 range.
5. Use PLAIN 6% household bleach to maintain chlorine levels in the OTO yellow to medium yellow range.
6. Remove tabs and ALL chemicals from your skimmer, feeders (if any) and system. Then, use the skimmer to add bleach, 1/2 gallon ONLY at a time.
7. Do NOT add anything to increase alkalinity.
8. DO get your pool store to check your calcium level, and tell us what it is.
9. I'm going to have to wait awhile for the stuff in your pool to break down, before we can use other stain chemicals. Otherwise, we could get into an unpleasant mix.
10. Consider using CuLator:

1 ppm Culator, direct from Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic

We don't know that they work . . . but we think they do, and IF they do, they'll remove any metals that are STILL in your water.

If you get them, get this, too:

Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner

and put the CuLator UNDER the sock -- that way, you'll be able to use it till it's saturated with metals, rather than having it get plugged with pool goo.

11. See if you can get some polyquat locally (info here)
If not, you can get it here:

Kem-Tek 311-6 Pool and Spa 60-Percent Concentrated Algaecide, 1 Quart

You need to keep your chlorine low, to avoid further staining; the polyquat will help prevent algae for now.

12. Do a white bucket test for metals in your fill water -- we need to figure out how the metals are getting into your pool:

+ Get a WHITE clean 5 gallon plastic bucket.
+ Add 4 gallons of whatever water you fill your pool with
+ Add 1/4 cup of plain 6% bleach and 1/8 cup of baking soda. Mix and cover.
+ After 24 hrs, inspect for sediment. Note quantity and color. Recover
+ After 24 more hours, inspect again. Let us know what you find.

THEN

+ repeat the process with your POOL water.

. . . that's enough for now.

[dblomom]

waterbear/PoolDoc,

We have had a TON of rain (and bad storms) the last several days so my pool problems have been put on the back burner. We are supposed to have better weather this weekend so I hope to have something to report back with the information you provided in your post(s). Thanks!

Amy