Pristiva Primer and Activator

[cjryan33]

Has anyone on the forum used or has any opinions of the Pristiva Primer and Activator (Salt)? I have just put in my second batch of the primer and it appears that my pool is having issues keeping my chlorine levels up. I have ordered and awaiting delivery of my Taylor K-2006 test kit. Once it comes in, I will post some numbers. I was just curious to see if anyone else had used or uses this product and wanted some opinions of the product.

Thanks,
Chris

[waterbear]

It's basically salt with some unknown additives but since the company is being run by an ex Bioguard Executive I would guess it's very similar to Bioguards Mineral Springs Beginnings and Renewal. In other words, an expensive mix of salt, CYA and borax!

They use a lot of hype on their website about "Nova Scotia Salt" and "X2O enhancers" (but never really explain what these are of what they do!) so I would have to say that this subsidiary of North American Salt/Compass Minerals is mostly marketing and not much substance! If there was any substance to it there would be some research to back it up!

[PoolDoc]

Pristiva:

Pristiva, Inc. (A Compass Minerals Company) => pristiva DOT net
9900 West 109th St., Suite 600
Overland Park, KS 66210

Domain Name: PRISTIVA . NET
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Updated Date: 22-mar-2010
Creation Date: 16-may-2008
Expiration Date: 16-may-2014

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Compass Minerals International tsmanager@compassminerals.com => CMP @ Google Finance
9900 West 109th Street, Suite 600 => Google Map
Overland Park, KS 66210
913-344-9279 fax: 913-344-9273


Their claim:
The end result of this scientific development process is the unique blend of X2O enhancers contained in both Pristiva Primer® and Activator products. Designed to be used without harmful phosphates, sulfates and metallic based treatment products, The Pristiva System uses X2O to outperform existing products in the marketplace, even in the harsh conditions found inside the ECG. The final outcome is a salt water pool that will perform better, look better, last longer and be easier to maintain than any other salt pool program anywhere. And as an additional benefit, the additives in X2O will make the water feel even better to your eyes, skin and hair than an ordinary salt water pool. We named it X2O because it takes ordinary H2O to another dimension of enjoyment
http://pristiva.net/storage/print-fr...of-x2o_pfv.pdf

Other references (archived)
http://pristiva.net/performance; http://pristiva.net/guarantee/

[GB2008]

This is my first time on this forum but I’d like to respond to some the questions and comments that have been raised about Pristiva. My name is Geoff Brown and I’m a Developmental Scientist in Pristiva’s R&D department. Just to tell you a little about myself, I’m a 22 year veteran of the pool industry and have developed a number of new pool and spa products throughout that time. In addition, I’ve been actively involved in advocacy organizations and held leadership positions on APSP committees.

First of all, I’d like to address the comments posed by cjryan33 regarding low chlorine readings at start up. When this occurs, supplemental chlorine should be added until it reaches the desired, stable level. In spite of the issues that you’re experiencing they are temporary and the pool will continue to look great, as advertised. Also, I’d be more than happy to send you an Information Bulletin that describes how to optimize start ups in Pristiva pools. It addresses the questions you’ve raised and gives easy-to-follow steps that simplify the start up process.

Second, I’d like to address some misunderstandings about what Pristiva’s additives are and what they are not. The additives that make Pristiva unique are trademarked as X2O. The reason why the company does not disclose the composition of X2O is because it is proprietary. Divulging the formula would be analogous to Coca Cola® sharing its secret formula with their competitors. Suffice it to say though, Pristiva contains no cyanuric acid (CYA).

Also, years of intensive research and development are behind Pristiva and its superior performance has been verified by independent, third party testing. Moreover, the product is substantially different from BioGuard’s Mineral Springs®. Although both products make similar claims, Mineral Springs is rich in two troublesome, scale promoting compounds. Specifically, Mineral Springs adds large amounts phosphate and sulfate, which can combine with calcium to form scale inside the electrolytic chlorine generator. By contrast, and very much by design, Pristiva does not use phosphate or sulfate-based products.

To put all of this in its proper perspective, thousands of pool owners across the US and Canada are using Activator and Primer. The overwhelming majority of these customers are not having issues and are delighted with the feel and convenience of their Pristiva Pool.

Cjryan33, I’d like to thank you for using Pristiva and to assure you that you and your customer’s satisfaction is our primary concern. I hope this addresses the questions and misunderstandings, but please feel free to call me if you want to additional details. [ PoolDoc note: Contact info deleted -- subscribing doesn't give you the right to promote your company here. Once you've delivered HARD evidence that your product works, we'll reconsider ]

[PoolDoc]

Hi Geoff;

While I appreciate your attempts to support the value of your product, nothing you've said here is likely to persuade me, or any of the moderators and contributors here that your product has any value, except as a means of boosting income for Compass and its dealers. While I appreciate that novel but un-patentable products can be protected by obscuring their nature, I'm sure you can appreciate that useless old products can be obscured the same way . . . and yet acquire a new and marketable cachet via a catchy sounding trademark, like "X20" for example.

I gather that Compass is new to the pool industry.

Many of us are not. Speaking only for myself, I've witnessed 30 years of product shyster-ism by both small businesses and big corporations. During that time, I've learned -- often through painful and personal experience -- that most of what claims to be "new and improved" is neither.

We can accept at face value your claim that the Pristiva products are not yet another re-incarnation of the various blends of borax, polyphosphates, and copper that have played such a large role in the "new and improved" products foisted on naive consumers over the last decade.

But the fact that Pristiva's products aren't like those in no way supports the premise that they have any unique value.

The simple reality is that it's not hard to prove that your products work. If you've done so, show us the beef, so to speak. You can take a look at the China Shop, and quickly determine that there are a number of us here who are quite comfortable reading peer-reviewed scientific literature.

We've seen -- and archived -- your brochures, and aren't really very impressed. I'm not going to reproduce the article I published years ago on "Blue Water Voodoo", but years before Compass even dreamed of Pristiva, I explained in some detail how I could hire a "gold neck-chain sales promoter" and sell fancy jugs filled with blue water and silicone thickener AND provide a 120% money-back guarantee AND make money doing so.

You inform us you are active in the APSP. Not to put to fine a point on it, but so what? The APSP is, as the NSPI was, dominated by the corporate chemical players, and reflects their interests, not those of pool owners.

For the past 3 decades, chemical company after chemical company has attempted to make gold out of feathers, by creating a putative 'need' for specialty chemicals, thus allowing them to escape the nasty and low profit margins that come from selling mere commodities. The great majority of these products are unnecessary 90% of the time; the remainder are NEVER needed. Your 22 years in the industry means that it is likely that you have worked for one of these companies. And, it means that you know -- as I do -- that in the pool industry a "developmental chemist" is not someone who researches new and more efficient ways to manage pool chemistry, but rather is usually someone who re-blends the 15 or 20 existing pool chemicals into new mixes that can be sold as "new" and "improved" and (more expensive at retail) and (less expensive to make).

In 30 years, I've seen possibly 4 new chemical products, in TOTAL: the chitosan products, the enzymes, the lanthanum phosphate removers, and the new CuLator products. CuLator is the only one of those that might have significant specific value -- IF it works. The chitosans are another way to clarify, not a particular better way. The enzymes may -- or may not -- be occasionally valuable. And now the "ESSENTIAL" lanthanum products have suddenly become non-essential, with China closing down the supply.

So, in 30 years, there has not been a single, proven, SIGNIFICANT new chemical product. But there have been hundreds, maybe thousands, of chemicals that claimed to be all those things. So, just by the historical odds, it's 100 to 1 that your product even works differently, and it's 500 to 1 that the difference (if it exists) matters.

You want us to trust you? Fine. Prove that you are NOT like all the other chemical companies that have gone before you!

You don't want us to know what's in your product? That's fine, too. But PROVE that it works or we will be convinced that your well written post, filled with vague and meaningless implications of value, is all the substance Pristiva has to offer.

You wrote:

Also, years of intensive research and development are behind Pristiva and its superior performance has been verified by independent, third party testing.

Fine. Send them to us. We'll read them very carefully.

Until you do, we'll continue warn people not to waste their money on products with vague and unproven claims.

[GB2008]

Dear PoolDoc,

I’d like to thank you for your candid response to my post and I wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the dubious and/or snake-oil type products that our industry seems to attract. As a result, I’m also quite skeptical of products (and not just those in our industry) that make unsubstantiated claims. On these things we agree and see eye to eye. However, I think that we will probably have to agree to disagree on some of the other points, especially as they relate to Pristiva. Specifically, Pristiva has data with which to substantiate it’s performance claims. Some of this data has been incorporated into a patent application while some of the other, more recent data has been shared publicly at the last two IPSPE trade shows. Although our target audience for these presentations was and continues to be prospective customers only, we’re aware that scientists working for our competitors have also seen our test data. After two years, we have yet to receive a data-driven rebuttal from any of these companies. Realistically, I don’t expect this to change your position, but that was not my goal. My goals were to thank you for your candor, and also to assure our customers that Pristiva has solid performance data that substantiate our claims. Prospective customers can and should review our data package in order to make informed buying decisions and, as noted in your earlier post, visit [ Pristiva's website - live sales links NOT allowed ] for more information.
--
Regards,
Geoff – a fellow skeptic

[BigTallGuy]

As a SWCG owner and user for a couple of years now, I am delighted with the ease, feel and convenience using plain Salt. My only “issue” is rising pH, and I have only had to clean my SWCG twice since installing it in May, 2010. The cleaning process took 20-30 minutes and used a total of a couple of cups of Muriatic Acid.

Your claim of better feel and convenience, I already enjoy. Salt is cheap, around $7 per 40 lb. bag. So compared to Salt, what does your product offer? Does it make the pool water feel twice as nice as plain salt? How does one measure that? At what price?

The shelves of my local pool store are filled with products with promises similar to the same ones you have made, and many of us on this Forum as well as across North America have been “Pool Stored” by slick talking salesmen with “Magic Pills” and “Miracle Powders” that try to make a year’s wages in six months, so that is where those products stay, on the shelf of the Pool Store.

I honestly have never heard of your product probably because I am not in the Market for it. Your product may be as good as you say, but secret ingredients simply scare me for the same reasons Carl mentioned. Water, Salt, Muriatic Acid, and a little CYA, is all that I want, need, and put into my pool. These products have stood the test of time with regards to safety and results, as well as cost.

[waterbear]

Well said BigTallGuy!

[cjryan33]

Wow....... I did not mean to start such a somewhat heated debate. The main reason I put that stuff in my pool, was that we have very hard water where I live in Fulshear, TX and was told this would help with the scaling and calcium build up. I am a new pool owner and still learning the ways..... Im hoping my Taylor K-2006 kit comes in today, so I can get an accurate account of what my pool is up to. I will say that my experience so far, has not been the greatest. A lot of Im sure is the fact I dont really know what Im doing. I will post some numbers up hopefully this weekend and from what I have read, yall will have a more economical way to maintain my pool.

Thanks,
Chris

[PoolDoc]

[ When you get your kit, post the results and I'll see if I can help you. There a couple of practical ways to lower scale producing chemicals in pool water, even when the fill water is pretty messed up. Besides test results, we'll need details on your pump and filter system, since you have to take those minerals out as some form of deposited debris on the filter (or maybe, on the pool bottom, in which case you need "vacuum to waste" capability). ]

But, it's not your fault that the thread took the turn it did. We just work pretty hard to slam the door on new mystery goo products -- we see several new ones each year. To date, since the inception of the forum, we've not seen a single such product that turned out to be worth the money. AND, we've seen many that turned out to be harmful to your pool.

It's *possible* that Pritiva will turn out to be the exception. However the odds are very much against it.

Making it even LESS likely that it will be a worthwhile product is the fact that the Pristiva brand unit is being run by a former BioLab executive. BioLab has a 30 year history of taking $0.50/lb potatoes and turning them into $6.00/lb

pommes frites!

More recently (and more desperately), they've been making product blends that -- in our experience -- make pools more DIFFICULT to run.

I've talked to many BioLab technical people over the years. I have ALWAYS found them very knowledgeable, and I've never been lied to (that I know of) by a BioLab'r. But, I and several others here, have found that they "tell the truth" in amazingly artful ways. To put it another way, if President Clinton had learned to 'tell the truth' like a BioLab'r, he probably never would have been impeached for perjury, and no one would have ever known about Monica!

Because of this experience several of us have shared, we NEVER trust anyone who has an association with BioLab. There are several 'tell-tales' in the Pristiva guy's posts that are consistent with the BioLab 'way of truth-telling'. He might be straight up, but we have no way of knowing that, since he's not ready to share any of that proof or those studies he has referred to.

There can be an EXCELLENT reason for not sharing such information. I have a file drawer full of such studies (none from BioLab!), and what many of them show is that the product studied 'works' in the sense that a lab evaluation can detect an improvement, but the improvement is so small that no one would notice in the field.

My guess is, Pristiva does work in that manner: well enough to detect but not well enough to matter!