Shocking

[PoolDoc]

I understand about the easier; if you both are working lots of hours and have more income than time, lithium hypochlorite (Burn Out 35) is a reasonable choice. And, if your builder is also your dealer, I understand having to placate him while you're trying to solve installation problems.

And, as you say, we're somewhat limited in our ability to help, so long as you can't tell your builder to 'kiss off', at a certain point.

But . . .

1. You still don't have test results that I consider trustworthy. You probably CAN get an HTH 6-way at a local Walmart; you should be able to ID a store that has those, by using their website. This kit has both reliable chlorine testing (OTO) and reliable CYA testing.

2. Since you are a pharmacist, I'll state this a little differently than I would generally. In the presence of CYA, chlorine reacts to form a group of chlorinated cyanurates that are (a) stable in sunlight and (b) have extremely fast equilibrium relationships with the active HOCl compound. As a result, as your CYA goes up, your chlorine is (mostly) inactive, but instantly available as HOCl is consumed. The result is that you can compensate for high CYA with high chlorine, and experience the BENEFIT of a very large, and instantly available, chlorine reserve. It is this chemical reality that is functionally described in the Best Guess chart. (link in my signature).

In your case, high CYA offers you the possibility of 1x per week chlorination, since the high CYA allows you to store so much chlorine in the pool in an inactive form. 30 ppm free chlorine would damage swimwear, and chap your skin, in the absence of CYA, but not in the presence of 100 - 200 ppm CYA. The problem is that DPD tablet tests cannot be used these levels, and the syringaldazine strips -- whether optically or visually read -- do not discriminate above 10 ppm. OTO (in the HTH 6-way) does, but it's not very precise. Nevertheless, if you dose to an OTO orange level . . . you'll be at an appropriate chlorine level for CYA in the 100 - 200 ppm range.

This is why you don't necessarily need to drain, and why high CYA in your situation (little time for pool care) can actually be a benefit. BUT, you have to be able to test, and at present, neither you nor your dealer have that capability.

3. Beyond all this, it sounds like you are just in a holding pattern, till you drain for repairs. I'd recommend getting the HTH kit locally, and using your BurnOUt 35 to dose to OTO orange. You need to get the K-2006 ASAP, and verify your levels, and adjust as needed. Using the Taylor reagents, you need to dilute your sample 50:50 with distilled or DI water (also available at Walmart -- but you may have some through work) before testing pH. The Taylor pH reagent (in both the HTH and K206 kits) is stable to 10 ppm FC, but above that you form chlorophenol red, which has different colors. With a 50:50 dilution, you can still get good pH results up to 20 ppm. If you happen to have a CALIBRATED pH meter at work, that's another option.

[trilogy problems]

Ok so here is the latest. I have to say I do love our pool store people they are so helpful and gave me a cya test at no chareg so we could starrt doing this immediately. They find this all very interesting and fully support anything we can do to make this work right. So even this will be a bet guess estimate but I am sure closer than before. MY CYA is 300. Through multiple dilutions we are fairly certain this is the case. I am guessing I was over 500 prior to my draining and refilling, but we will never know for sure. As you mentioned most cl test are not accurate at some point. I had been giving 10 as that was the highest my reading went. I am at a bright orange wth the test kit you reccomend by doing nothing at all, through dilution I believe my chlorine to be in the 30 range currently. Ph still seems to be in line at 7.6 so that is good. I am going to continure to drain and refill. My TDS came down form 3500 to 2600 so I am making progress. I know your thoughs are that I dont need to continue this, but again this is waht the company wants, a fresh start with a new plan to see if the raised baby pool is truely causing the chemical issues. It may be a bit expensive but honestly after all of the items I have dumped in my pool the past 3 years new water is not the worst thing.

Thank you so much for your chemical explanation of the chlorine/CYA reaction. This is in essence how I was understanding it to work based on eveything I had read, but it is nice to know how exactly the chemicals combine.

Also we have had Triogy out at this point and as for now they have completed the repairs on the baby pool that they can. Right now the ball is back in our court so to speak. We need to begin using it and try and figure out why it so adversely affects our chemistry. They are talking about putting an additional pump on it, this seems doubtful due to the way it was initially plumbed. A second thought of theirs has been to add a UV light, any experience with those? Or, I am hoping this may help trememdously starting to use a modified version of your program.

One more thing, what are your thoughs on Natural Chemistry's pool perfect plus phos free. They have had us use it in the past and it has helped our particalr pool. We live in an are where we get a ton of fertilizer runoff so phosphates are always high. Do you consider that to be an issue. For eveyone 1 person I see comment that it is another says its not. Thanks so much for your help

[PoolDoc]

Sorry. I'm not going to do this.

You're a pharmacist; you can read the stuff here, and particularly the stuff Chem_Geek has posted in the China Shop, here, and in "The Deep End" at Trouble Free Pools. Make up your mind about who's credible, and who's not. You have the training to do so; you don't need our help to make sense of it, and lots of other people who come here, do.

If, and when, you decide that it would be a good idea to let us help you with a recipe, say so. But till then, please work on it yourself.

But, there's really no point to going back and forth between us and the pool store; it's a waste of time for everybody. It sounds like you're saying their advice got you where you are, which would seem to me to point to an obvious conclusion. But maybe not. In any case, you're the one who has to reach that conclusion.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying your pool guys are bad people -- just wrong. You're a pharmacist -- you know better than I how profits drive training and the information flow: pool store guy chemicals vs physician prescriptions . . . it's a matter of degree, not kind. If you've been a pharmacist long enough, you've seen GSK and others laughing all the way to the bank, as the 'save the ozone layer' laws drove the generic asthma drugs right back into their patent jail.

GSK makes billions, screwing up asthmatics lives; BioLab makes millions, screwing up pool owners pools . . . and the gullible believe them when they say they really just want to train you in better pool care, or patient care.

[chem geek]

trilogy problems, you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. If you want to only add chlorine once a week, then you can do what some pool services do and have a high CYA level of around 100 ppm and shock up to around 14 ppm FC and then the following week the chlorine will likely be down to around 4 ppm FC if you are in a hot sunny desert area at which point you raise it to 14 ppm again. If you use only chlorinating liquid or bleach or lithium hypochlorite for this purpose, then to prevent the large pH swings you should have 50 ppm Borates in the pool. At least by using hypochlorite sources of chlorine you won't be raising the CYA level and by having a fairly high (but not too high) CYA level you will have relatively low chlorine loss from sunlight.

For a fuller technical discussion on many different chemical topics related to pool water chemistry, I suggest you read Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught including the many links to more detailed scientific references.

[trilogy problems]

OK so Pool Doc, I feel as though your response is at minimum sent with a frustrated tone that I dont appreciate. I have done 90% of what you ask and it seems as though just b/c you dont like your own experices with the pool industry you are for some reason directing that at my situation. If you dont wnat to help fine, but again I have done what you have asked and am trying to figure out where to go from here to try it your way, minus toting liquid bleach from the store by the cart full. Sorry that I refuse to step foot in a Walmart to buy the test and be forced to interact with the class of people that shop there, I prefer a clean store run by people who have developed a wonderful relationship with me and will do whatever I want to help in the process. Again I have read the forum and I do understand, and to some degree believe, that what you are saying with certian big name pool stores is true.. However I dont believe that most of them are bad people, they just have a different way which imo is fine. I have always used Soda ash and baking soda as they have always been up front about those products with all their customers. They are more than willing to order anything in I have ever requested, but they are also fine to sell big brand names to those who want them. Who cares. So when I called to see if they had the tests you requested, again to avoid Walmart like the plague, they offered me the CYA reagent and testing supplies immediately and ordered the taylor kit your reccommended in at no charge. I dont understand why it matters that they are willing to help me achieve this?????

Chem Geek -I have just read through the CPO trianing and it is more of the same information I am tryng to use to possibly make chlorinating my pool easier, so Thank you. Though I dont understand why everyone keeps going back to the fact I only want to chlorinate my pool weekly? I never said this and to be clear it is not my intenton. Until this winter and dealing with trying to get our pool fixed, did I become aware of the relationship betweeen the CYA and Cl. SO upon opening, I started the process of trying to get that level down as soon as it became aparant that mine was definately out of control. From reading the forums the only way I have seen to get CYA out is to drain and then use diffent chemicals so it does not rise like that again. Hence I will only be shocking with the burn out Burn out 35, if I even need to shock at all. Still though come the issue of what should I run my CYA out since I do have the problem with all of the newly chlorinated water going into a 8 inch baby pool, and other features, and it uses the chlorine to quickly since the water is so shallow. I assume a bit higher than many run it, but I have no clue where??? That was also why the question about the UV sanitizer has come into question. The pool builder also want to stop dumping so much into the pool, again maybe shocking but true. They feel as though since they did not do a two pump system to run all of our water features, and it can not be retrofitted to do so, if we were able to have an additional element to deal with the sanitation, it would definately reduce the chemical consumption. As far as the UV, this is soley their thoughts, but I have asked the qestion several times and not gotten an awnser, could my extrely high CYA of 500 or more be the main contributing factor to our bi-weekly shocks, high chlorine tab consumption and our need to pour one gallon of chlorine into each pool feature, that sit empty until we actively turn them on, to sanitize them so that all the crap does not get in the pool and have the possibily to cause more problems. They are all in agreement to try your methods but due to the large number of water features we will most likely always use more than their average pool customers.

I hope you guys might have a suggestion as to this, but if not then I guess I will give up and just do whatever. But not all pools are the same and maybe unfortunately a forum like this is not the place for someone who doesnt have a 15,000 gallon oval liner pool. Our back yard is a modified version of a resort pool. Lots of differnt aspects to deal with and I was just trying to do it different and see if anything changes. Thanks in advance if you have some suggestions, and if not sorry I upset eveyone.

[aylad]

Sorry that I refuse to step foot in a Walmart to buy the test and be forced to interact with the class of people that shop there, I prefer a clean store run by people who have developed a wonderful relationship with me and will do whatever I want to help in the process.

I consider this a personal insult, since I'm part of the "class of people that shop there" that you don't want to be "forced to interact with".

For now, when you or any other new posters write a post, it goes into a queue where it stays until one of us mods it in. That's why you didn't see it immediately. I have deleted your duplicate post.

Good luck with your pool.

Janet

[BigDave]

Janet,
Haters gonna hate.
Don't let it get you down.
I can tell you this, don't know if it will help.
Where my mom lives, the Wally World is the nicest store in town. Mostly because the other stores cut back on almost everything trying to compete with the WM Megastore.
Where I live, the local Wall Marts are different - not at all pleasant and usually filthy. I can't explain it but I can tell you there is a difference. I avoid them - been in 'em enough to know what i'm talking about, but will usually shop elsewhere. I love my Costco - many people don't care for thiers.
The OP in this case is clearly unpleasant and not the class of people usually on this forum. Money can't buy class. Perhaps this person should ask Ben for a for a quote to manage the backyard oasis. I doubt he'd respond.

[PoolDoc]

OK so Pool Doc, I feel as though your response is at minimum sent with a frustrated tone that I don't appreciate.

The tone was frustrated, and I regret that -- I'd been dealing with other difficulties that had nothing to do with you.

If you don't want to help fine. .

I would say, rather, I don't want to engage in a 3-way negotiation between you, us and whoever you're dealing with locally. There would be nothing wrong with doing that, but I think it's inefficient for us to engage in that sort of elongated process, this time of year.

Sorry that I refuse to step foot in a Walmart to buy the test and be forced to interact with the class of people that shop there.

I'm with Aylad, there. I shop at Walmart, weekly. So, if you don't want to interact with that class of people, you really shouldn't be talking to me or Janet or Watermom. Not sure about Carl and Al, but they wouldn't hesitate to go to Walmart if there was something there they needed. It's actually, sort of a problem, since most of the grocery store chemicals we recommend -- bleach, borax, baking soda, washing soda, HTH 6-way -- are only consistently available at Walmart, and some other items -- dichlor & trichlor -- at Walmart's sister store, Sams Club.

I think I should stop there. As I said earlier, you have the training to work this out for yourself, without our having to hold your hand. And that way, you can be as flexible as you like in working the tensions between what your pool store says, what you want, and what we say.

Just one clarification -- I don't think I ever said your local pool guys were evil. What I said was -- I think, I haven't re-read everything -- was that they are ignorant. What I usually say about pool store employees is that they are either evil OR ignorant . . . or very, very rarely neither evil nor ignorant. They believe what they've been taught; it's not their fault that what they've been taught is wrong.

It's the chemical companies that deliberately mis-train people. This is the point of Chem_Geek's corrections to the CPO training . . . and that manual is FAR better than the one I had when I became a CPO instructor, much less the one I had when I became a CPO.


I'm not going to remove your registration, but I'd suggest that you not post further, at least during 2012. Here at PoolForum, we are either the "class of people that shop" at Walmart, or else people who doing mind hanging out with such Walmart peons. I'm not sure where you'd go to find a 'higher class' pool forum, but I can assure you, it will never be here.

[chem geek]

Chem Geek -I have just read through the CPO trianing and it is more of the same information I am tryng to use to possibly make chlorinating my pool easier, so Thank you. Though I dont understand why everyone keeps going back to the fact I only want to chlorinate my pool weekly? I never said this and to be clear it is not my intenton. Until this winter and dealing with trying to get our pool fixed, did I become aware of the relationship betweeen the CYA and Cl. SO upon opening, I started the process of trying to get that level down as soon as it became aparant that mine was definately out of control. From reading the forums the only way I have seen to get CYA out is to drain and then use diffent chemicals so it does not rise like that again. Hence I will only be shocking with the burn out Burn out 35, if I even need to shock at all. Still though come the issue of what should I run my CYA out since I do have the problem with all of the newly chlorinated water going into a 8 inch baby pool, and other features, and it uses the chlorine to quickly since the water is so shallow. I assume a bit higher than many run it, but I have no clue where??? That was also why the question about the UV sanitizer has come into question. The pool builder also want to stop dumping so much into the pool, again maybe shocking but true. They feel as though since they did not do a two pump system to run all of our water features, and it can not be retrofitted to do so, if we were able to have an additional element to deal with the sanitation, it would definately reduce the chemical consumption. As far as the UV, this is soley their thoughts, but I have asked the qestion several times and not gotten an awnser, could my extrely high CYA of 500 or more be the main contributing factor to our bi-weekly shocks, high chlorine tab consumption and our need to pour one gallon of chlorine into each pool feature, that sit empty until we actively turn them on, to sanitize them so that all the crap does not get in the pool and have the possibily to cause more problems. They are all in agreement to try your methods but due to the large number of water features we will most likely always use more than their average pool customers.

I hope you guys might have a suggestion as to this, but if not then I guess I will give up and just do whatever. But not all pools are the same and maybe unfortunately a forum like this is not the place for someone who doesnt have a 15,000 gallon oval liner pool. Our back yard is a modified version of a resort pool. Lots of differnt aspects to deal with and I was just trying to do it different and see if anything changes. Thanks in advance if you have some suggestions, and if not sorry I upset eveyone.

With such a high CYA level and not having a proportionately high FC level, algae is able to grow faster than chlorine can kill it. That is what leads to a very high chlorine demand, even if you don't see any visible algae since algae may not be visible until it gets numerous enough and clumps to reflect/absorb enough light. The amount of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) in the water that is the disinfectant that kills bacteria and that kills algae and prevents its growth is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio. This is why at higher CYA levels if you don't proportionately raise the FC level that problems can occur, including unusually high chlorine demand from trying to keep up with killing nascent algae.

I don't understand why you are opposed to getting chlorinating liquid from a pool store that is more concentrated (typically 10% or 12.5%) if you don't want to carry as much 6% bleach. Even if it's more expensive per FC, it won't be that much more. However, lithium hypochlorite (which is the chlorine in Burn Out 35) is VERY, VERY, VERY expensive for the chlorine you get. Yes, it is 35% available chlorine, but PER FC it is over 5 times as expensive as bleach or chlorinating liquid (see Cost Comparison of Chlorine Sources). Obviously you can use it if you want to, but I want to make sure you understand the extraordinary premium in price you are paying to carry 1/3rd to 1/6th the weight. Also, you refer to using it for shocking, but what will you be using for regular chlorination if you are going to be dosing more than once a week? If you use stabilized chlorine such as Trichlor tabs/pucks, then that will increase the CYA level. The following are chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it will also increase Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it will also increase CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it will also increase Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

The builder doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks that a UV system is going to help you reduce your chlorine amount. Use your head here and think about where chlorine gets used. The greatest loss of chlorine daily is from breakdown from the UV in sunlight (the UV system will also breakdown some chlorine, but not that much since most are woefully undersized). There is less breakdown with higher CYA levels, even with proportionately higher FC levels, but you'll still lose anywhere from 15% to 50% of your FC level depending on your CYA level (15% loss at around 100 ppm CYA, 50% loss at around 40 ppm CYA, assuming a full long day of sun at the peak of summer). Your chlorine is not getting lost more quickly due to the shallow water. Over 97% of it is bound to CYA and does not evaporate. All a UV system is good for is killing Cryptosporidium parvum oocysts which are not a problem in residential pools unless you let some sick person with diarrhea into your pool. It's an issue in commercial/public pools where one person can infect dozens or more.

After loss from sunlight, the next largest chlorine loss in a residential pool is either thermal loss at around 0.3 to 0.7 ppm FC depending on water temp or it's bather load IF the pool is small and you have a lot of bathers or people urinating in the pool. After that, there is a small loss from chlorine oxidizing CYA at around 0.1 to 0.3 ppm FC per day. However, in your pool right now with the very large chlorine loss, it's mostly trying to kill algae because the active chlorine level simply isn't high enough. So if you don't want to take care of that directly by lowering your CYA level and shocking to a higher FC and thereafter maintaining an appropriate FC/CYA, then there are other ways for you to spend money at the pool store to prevent algae growth including the use of algicides (PolyQuat 60 being the best) and phosphate removers and even copper ion products if you don't care about staining your pool surfaces or turning blond hair greenish. Obviously, we don't recommend those here (except for PolyQuat 60 if one really wants to have some supplemental algae prevention; 50 ppm Borates is another alternative that can help a little), but it's your pool and you do whatever you want with it.

I think what got people offended here was your digging in your heels that you would not stop using BioGuard or other pool store products before even listening to us about the pros and cons of various products. This site is all about education and if you come here with a closed mind then that puts people off. If after learning the truth based on actual chemistry and real-world experiences you still decide to use more expensive pool store products, then that is fine since you will be doing so with the knowledge of the pros and cons of such choices. There is no question that using Trichlor pucks/tabs can be more convenient for some people and if they then deal with the side effects by buying other products at additional expense, then so be it -- that's a cost/convenience tradeoff made as an informed decision.

Also, if you want the most convenience and have money to spend, then consider getting a saltwater chlorine generator system. Otherwise, as Ben says, a pool service is the easiest if you've got money to spend.

[CarlD]

There is not much to add other than the digs at Wal-Mart shoppers and employees. My issues with Wal-Mart are not with the folks in the stores but with certain corporate policies I won't go into. I don't turn my nose at people who shop there because they need to save money and time, nor at people who work there because they need jobs. I go there to buy things I cannot get elsewhere such as the 6-way test kit. It is a simple as that.

It is also very simple: if the advice here conflicts with the advice you get elsewhere you must choose whose advice to follow. Too often people try to mix and match and that doesn't work when advice conflicts. As happened here we then get blamed and told "Well, if you don't want to help!". Imagine asking a teacher for help with spelling (Watermom is a teacher) and then constantly telling her "But Sally down at the advertising agency says to spell it this way!" That teacher will say "Then spell it the way Sally says and let me help someone else." So when someone wants to do that, we back off.

Our methods work and have worked for many thousand of pool owners. Yesterday I pulled the cover off my pool and started my filter. It was green. Today it is blue and clear with some dusty junk on the bottom and tomorrow that will be clean, too. Simple, no magic. Just 5 gallons of LC at the right time and I brushed the floor to knock the stuff loose. I haven't even vacuumed yet or started adding the CYA for the season.

You are having far more trouble than you need. Ultimately, every pool is the SOLE responsibility of the owner, not forums you find on the Internet. We can only advise as best we can from the info you give us and from our shared experinces. We can only recommend actions and if you choose not to follow them...THE RESULTS ARE STILL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!