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Thread: Shocking

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    Default Shocking

    In addition to my many other issues- I also have gotten a crazy amount of CYA in my pool. I am doing a partial drain, but i am also going to try and control what is going in this year. After talking with the pool store in depth they told me that the biogard burnout 35 does not have the CYA I just want to confirm this to be true. We have been doing bi-weekly shocks 1 time with that and 1 time with super sol. I am thinking of switching to do one of the shocks with liquid. I have a 25000 gallon pool how much liquid would I need? I was thinking 4 gallons per shock. This is assuming I get my CYA down to about 60. DOes all of this sound correct?

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    Default Re: Shocking

    Burn Out 35?

    That's lithium hypochlorite, a product much loved by BioGuard as a . . . WALLET SHOCK! No, it doesn't have much CYA in it (none!).

    You are going to a BioLab store?? Please do all the following:

    1. Stop draining the pool.
    2. Read this long post about Biolab: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?15052
    3. Get a cheap OTO/phenol red kit, today if possible, and tell us what your chlorine and pH levels are. If you can get a HTH-6way, you can find out what your stabilizer level REALLY is. (No, you can't trust the BioGuard test results, and especially not the "Alex" computer!)
    4. Order a K-2006. See this page; it will also explain about OTO kits and the HTH 6-way
    5. Add 3 gallons of plain 6% household bleach daily, till you reach a DARK yellow (past 5) level on your OTO kit. Use bleach to maintain, till you get the K-2006, and we can find out what's ACTUALLY in your pool.

    Be very, very careful about draining a fiberglass pool. If there is ANY water in the ground around the pool, it can push the pool OUT of the ground. At that point, your other issues will be moot.

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    Default Re: Shocking

    Ok I was just trying to give the simple version, but it might be best to explain in detail to get the correct answer. Yes we do use Bioguard, and I know this will be to the dismay of many, but at least for now we have no intention to stop. We are having many issues with the build of our pool, and to get these issuses resolved we are at the mercy of the builder who uses these products. If we are to stop and not maintain the chemicals the way they see fit we are much less likely to have them continue working with us in a civilized manner. Completely different story ugg! So saying that, I realize to some degree you all may not be able to help me a ton but I would still like to do what I can. That being said, I have no option but to do partial drains, I am familar with all of the issues with fiberglass we thoroughly researched all of this before we ever put the pool in, and I am draining the correct way no worries there. I am to do a repeat test at the dealer in the moning after replacing water for about 24 hours. As far as my chemicals I have the basic kits and test daily.

    TC 10
    FC 10
    CYA 151???
    Ph 8.0 (probably from all the new h20)
    everything else is in line-

    I will absolutely get a better way of testing CYA for my own satisfaction, but point is even the guys at my dealer know what I have to put in my pool is a problem. They aren't horrible people as some I have seen, and they agree in total about the actual chemicals it takes to run a pool and don't try to trick people onto buying things they don't need.

    That being said my pool set up has not tolerated in anyway the liquid chlorine method. I have to shock on a regualr basis due to a baby pool we have and the way the flow was set up during construction. Yes this sucks for now, but its what I have. I would being pouring liquid in all day to to get a reading and lets be honest, maybe men who take care of pool will tote bleach from a store but sorry fellas I wont. I have 2 small children, am pregnant and husband works 100+ hours. It's never happening, espically not just to save a buck. Point being, is that I have high TDS, mostly probably cya, from all the crap I put in, I have high CYA and for now all I can really do is try to put less in my pool.

    So after reading your forum in detail, for me right now I think if I can shock once weekely with the Burn out 35 and once with the bleach, I could at least minimize CYA and thusly keep my chlorine lower than I have to now which is what I think may be adding up to some of the extra shocking since what I have in my pool is less effective due to CYA. As long as I understand the chemical nature of it all it, and I am a pharmacist so I believe I do, shoudn't this theory help? And if so, I still am trying to minimize what goes in, so I was debating between 3 and 4 gallons for a shock level, again assuming I get my CYA to about 60.

    I think it might also being worth mentioning, I know much talk is also about expense of these pool store chemicals, I also agree that they are expensive and though I dont love wasting money, that is just not a concern for us, I will be buying pool store chlorine b/c they deliver. I dont care if the burn out is more, it easy and thats fine for us as long as its getting me closer to the desired result of keeping my FC lower and ultimately adding less to my pool. Also based on you above suggestion, I need to add no chlorine at all until this comes down, this is all still from our shock at opening, which replacing water will also help with. SO I know I am not the norm but can you guys offer any other suggestions within the parameters I must stay? I guess I should also mention I honestly have no issues with my chemicals after coming up with a plan that has worked for us. No cloudnies, algae or anything, only keeping chlorine. Couldnt this be soley from my high stabilizer? Thanks in advance for all of your help. This site has been very informative.

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    Default Re: Shocking

    I understand about the easier; if you both are working lots of hours and have more income than time, lithium hypochlorite (Burn Out 35) is a reasonable choice. And, if your builder is also your dealer, I understand having to placate him while you're trying to solve installation problems.

    And, as you say, we're somewhat limited in our ability to help, so long as you can't tell your builder to 'kiss off', at a certain point.

    But . . .

    1. You still don't have test results that I consider trustworthy. You probably CAN get an HTH 6-way at a local Walmart; you should be able to ID a store that has those, by using their website. This kit has both reliable chlorine testing (OTO) and reliable CYA testing.

    2. Since you are a pharmacist, I'll state this a little differently than I would generally. In the presence of CYA, chlorine reacts to form a group of chlorinated cyanurates that are (a) stable in sunlight and (b) have extremely fast equilibrium relationships with the active HOCl compound. As a result, as your CYA goes up, your chlorine is (mostly) inactive, but instantly available as HOCl is consumed. The result is that you can compensate for high CYA with high chlorine, and experience the BENEFIT of a very large, and instantly available, chlorine reserve. It is this chemical reality that is functionally described in the Best Guess chart. (link in my signature).

    In your case, high CYA offers you the possibility of 1x per week chlorination, since the high CYA allows you to store so much chlorine in the pool in an inactive form. 30 ppm free chlorine would damage swimwear, and chap your skin, in the absence of CYA, but not in the presence of 100 - 200 ppm CYA. The problem is that DPD tablet tests cannot be used these levels, and the syringaldazine strips -- whether optically or visually read -- do not discriminate above 10 ppm. OTO (in the HTH 6-way) does, but it's not very precise. Nevertheless, if you dose to an OTO orange level . . . you'll be at an appropriate chlorine level for CYA in the 100 - 200 ppm range.

    This is why you don't necessarily need to drain, and why high CYA in your situation (little time for pool care) can actually be a benefit. BUT, you have to be able to test, and at present, neither you nor your dealer have that capability.

    3. Beyond all this, it sounds like you are just in a holding pattern, till you drain for repairs. I'd recommend getting the HTH kit locally, and using your BurnOUt 35 to dose to OTO orange. You need to get the K-2006 ASAP, and verify your levels, and adjust as needed. Using the Taylor reagents, you need to dilute your sample 50:50 with distilled or DI water (also available at Walmart -- but you may have some through work) before testing pH. The Taylor pH reagent (in both the HTH and K206 kits) is stable to 10 ppm FC, but above that you form chlorophenol red, which has different colors. With a 50:50 dilution, you can still get good pH results up to 20 ppm. If you happen to have a CALIBRATED pH meter at work, that's another option.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Shocking

    Ok so here is the latest. I have to say I do love our pool store people they are so helpful and gave me a cya test at no chareg so we could starrt doing this immediately. They find this all very interesting and fully support anything we can do to make this work right. So even this will be a bet guess estimate but I am sure closer than before. MY CYA is 300. Through multiple dilutions we are fairly certain this is the case. I am guessing I was over 500 prior to my draining and refilling, but we will never know for sure. As you mentioned most cl test are not accurate at some point. I had been giving 10 as that was the highest my reading went. I am at a bright orange wth the test kit you reccomend by doing nothing at all, through dilution I believe my chlorine to be in the 30 range currently. Ph still seems to be in line at 7.6 so that is good. I am going to continure to drain and refill. My TDS came down form 3500 to 2600 so I am making progress. I know your thoughs are that I dont need to continue this, but again this is waht the company wants, a fresh start with a new plan to see if the raised baby pool is truely causing the chemical issues. It may be a bit expensive but honestly after all of the items I have dumped in my pool the past 3 years new water is not the worst thing.

    Thank you so much for your chemical explanation of the chlorine/CYA reaction. This is in essence how I was understanding it to work based on eveything I had read, but it is nice to know how exactly the chemicals combine.

    Also we have had Triogy out at this point and as for now they have completed the repairs on the baby pool that they can. Right now the ball is back in our court so to speak. We need to begin using it and try and figure out why it so adversely affects our chemistry. They are talking about putting an additional pump on it, this seems doubtful due to the way it was initially plumbed. A second thought of theirs has been to add a UV light, any experience with those? Or, I am hoping this may help trememdously starting to use a modified version of your program.

    One more thing, what are your thoughs on Natural Chemistry's pool perfect plus phos free. They have had us use it in the past and it has helped our particalr pool. We live in an are where we get a ton of fertilizer runoff so phosphates are always high. Do you consider that to be an issue. For eveyone 1 person I see comment that it is another says its not. Thanks so much for your help

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    Default Re: Shocking

    Sorry. I'm not going to do this.

    You're a pharmacist; you can read the stuff here, and particularly the stuff Chem_Geek has posted in the China Shop, here, and in "The Deep End" at Trouble Free Pools. Make up your mind about who's credible, and who's not. You have the training to do so; you don't need our help to make sense of it, and lots of other people who come here, do.

    If, and when, you decide that it would be a good idea to let us help you with a recipe, say so. But till then, please work on it yourself.

    But, there's really no point to going back and forth between us and the pool store; it's a waste of time for everybody. It sounds like you're saying their advice got you where you are, which would seem to me to point to an obvious conclusion. But maybe not. In any case, you're the one who has to reach that conclusion.

    For what it's worth, I'm not saying your pool guys are bad people -- just wrong. You're a pharmacist -- you know better than I how profits drive training and the information flow: pool store guy chemicals vs physician prescriptions . . . it's a matter of degree, not kind. If you've been a pharmacist long enough, you've seen GSK and others laughing all the way to the bank, as the 'save the ozone layer' laws drove the generic asthma drugs right back into their patent jail.

    GSK makes billions, screwing up asthmatics lives; BioLab makes millions, screwing up pool owners pools . . . and the gullible believe them when they say they really just want to train you in better pool care, or patient care.
    Last edited by PoolDoc; 04-21-2012 at 08:21 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Shocking

    trilogy problems, you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. If you want to only add chlorine once a week, then you can do what some pool services do and have a high CYA level of around 100 ppm and shock up to around 14 ppm FC and then the following week the chlorine will likely be down to around 4 ppm FC if you are in a hot sunny desert area at which point you raise it to 14 ppm again. If you use only chlorinating liquid or bleach or lithium hypochlorite for this purpose, then to prevent the large pH swings you should have 50 ppm Borates in the pool. At least by using hypochlorite sources of chlorine you won't be raising the CYA level and by having a fairly high (but not too high) CYA level you will have relatively low chlorine loss from sunlight.

    For a fuller technical discussion on many different chemical topics related to pool water chemistry, I suggest you read Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught including the many links to more detailed scientific references.

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    Default Re: Shocking

    OK so Pool Doc, I feel as though your response is at minimum sent with a frustrated tone that I dont appreciate. I have done 90% of what you ask and it seems as though just b/c you dont like your own experices with the pool industry you are for some reason directing that at my situation. If you dont wnat to help fine, but again I have done what you have asked and am trying to figure out where to go from here to try it your way, minus toting liquid bleach from the store by the cart full. Sorry that I refuse to step foot in a Walmart to buy the test and be forced to interact with the class of people that shop there, I prefer a clean store run by people who have developed a wonderful relationship with me and will do whatever I want to help in the process. Again I have read the forum and I do understand, and to some degree believe, that what you are saying with certian big name pool stores is true.. However I dont believe that most of them are bad people, they just have a different way which imo is fine. I have always used Soda ash and baking soda as they have always been up front about those products with all their customers. They are more than willing to order anything in I have ever requested, but they are also fine to sell big brand names to those who want them. Who cares. So when I called to see if they had the tests you requested, again to avoid Walmart like the plague, they offered me the CYA reagent and testing supplies immediately and ordered the taylor kit your reccommended in at no charge. I dont understand why it matters that they are willing to help me achieve this?????

    Chem Geek -I have just read through the CPO trianing and it is more of the same information I am tryng to use to possibly make chlorinating my pool easier, so Thank you. Though I dont understand why everyone keeps going back to the fact I only want to chlorinate my pool weekly? I never said this and to be clear it is not my intenton. Until this winter and dealing with trying to get our pool fixed, did I become aware of the relationship betweeen the CYA and Cl. SO upon opening, I started the process of trying to get that level down as soon as it became aparant that mine was definately out of control. From reading the forums the only way I have seen to get CYA out is to drain and then use diffent chemicals so it does not rise like that again. Hence I will only be shocking with the burn out Burn out 35, if I even need to shock at all. Still though come the issue of what should I run my CYA out since I do have the problem with all of the newly chlorinated water going into a 8 inch baby pool, and other features, and it uses the chlorine to quickly since the water is so shallow. I assume a bit higher than many run it, but I have no clue where??? That was also why the question about the UV sanitizer has come into question. The pool builder also want to stop dumping so much into the pool, again maybe shocking but true. They feel as though since they did not do a two pump system to run all of our water features, and it can not be retrofitted to do so, if we were able to have an additional element to deal with the sanitation, it would definately reduce the chemical consumption. As far as the UV, this is soley their thoughts, but I have asked the qestion several times and not gotten an awnser, could my extrely high CYA of 500 or more be the main contributing factor to our bi-weekly shocks, high chlorine tab consumption and our need to pour one gallon of chlorine into each pool feature, that sit empty until we actively turn them on, to sanitize them so that all the crap does not get in the pool and have the possibily to cause more problems. They are all in agreement to try your methods but due to the large number of water features we will most likely always use more than their average pool customers.

    I hope you guys might have a suggestion as to this, but if not then I guess I will give up and just do whatever. But not all pools are the same and maybe unfortunately a forum like this is not the place for someone who doesnt have a 15,000 gallon oval liner pool. Our back yard is a modified version of a resort pool. Lots of differnt aspects to deal with and I was just trying to do it different and see if anything changes. Thanks in advance if you have some suggestions, and if not sorry I upset eveyone.

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    Default Re: Shocking

    One more note: if you use a mostly opaque pool cover, then you can cut down daily chlorine loss significantly. In my own pool I have a mostly opaque electric safety cover so have a lower daily FC loss of around 1.0 ppm with an FC of around 3-6 ppm and CYA of 40 ppm and the loss is only that high because the pool is used 1-2 hours every day (longer on weekends) and is kept warm at 88F (if the pool were not used and kept covered but still at 88F, then the loss is around 0.7 ppm FC per day). I add 6-8 cups of 12.5% chlorinating liquid to my 16,000 gallon pool twice a week costing around $15 per month.

    More typical daily chlorine losses in uncovered pools are around 2-3 ppm FC per day depending on CYA level and amount of sun on the pool. With 100 ppm CYA, you get around a 16% average loss per day so over 2 ppm initially and less than 1 ppm towards the end of the week. The main downside with this higher CYA is that IF you miss a dose or the chlorine level gets too low for whatever reason, then it takes a lot more chlorine to shock the pool to get rid of algae, so you need to be more diligent. The 50 ppm Borates can help somewhat since in addition to being a pH buffer, they are a mild algicide.

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    Default Re: Shocking

    Quote Originally Posted by trilogy problems View Post
    Sorry that I refuse to step foot in a Walmart to buy the test and be forced to interact with the class of people that shop there, I prefer a clean store run by people who have developed a wonderful relationship with me and will do whatever I want to help in the process.
    I consider this a personal insult, since I'm part of the "class of people that shop there" that you don't want to be "forced to interact with".

    For now, when you or any other new posters write a post, it goes into a queue where it stays until one of us mods it in. That's why you didn't see it immediately. I have deleted your duplicate post.

    Good luck with your pool.

    Janet

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