Best Method for Pool and Spa Sanitation for Chlorine Allergy

[LarryFlorida]

It tells you -- for a near certainty -- that (1) your daughter is NOT allergic to chlorine and (2) is NOT sensitive to monochloramine (which is the form of combined chlorine you'll find in tap water at pH 8.0.

What are the other forms of chloramines that can cause respiratory issues? Are there any?

I ask as I know for certain that if my daughter swims in a pool with very low chlorine, she does not get the symptoms. Now, could it be some reaction in the "chemical soup" that is pool water that is reduced when FC is low and its not an actual chlorine allergy?

[PoolDoc]

What are the other forms of chloramines that can cause respiratory issues? Are there any?

One of the scientific articles I recently archived attempted to enumerate chlorinated by-products, and ID'd upwards of 500 compounds. They are very hard to distinguish, and doing so is literally a matter of 'cutting edge' research.

As a class, these compounds tend to be irritating, to eyes, skin, and lungs. But you have to understand: scientists and researchers can barely distinguish these compounds; they are no where close determining the health effects specific to each compound.

Also, because researchers have not been able to tell one compound from another, they have -- even in scholarly articles -- referred to them as "chlorine" or "chloramines". But that is almost as bad as referring to that "dangerous chemical used in many kitchens, sodium chloride". (If you don't know, sodium chloride is table salt . . . and it is dangerous. Over use of it kills more people each year (via high blood pressure, etc.) than the "dangerous chlorine compounds" in drinking water do.

Another area of new research is attempting to move past current crude measures of health risk ("eating peanut butter results in 109 additional new cases of cancer per 1,000,000 people per year") to relative health effects ("cutting table salt use back to less than 1000 mg per day will extend the life of average French citizen living on the European continent by 0.72 years, and will enhance their life during their last decade by 31 points, using the standard WHO Quality of Life index").

But, right now, they are still working on simply being able to test and measure those compounds.

I ask as I know for certain that if my daughter swims in a pool with very low chlorine, she does not get the symptoms. Now, could it be some reaction in the "chemical soup" that is pool water that is reduced when FC is low and its not an actual chlorine allergy?

Uh-h. Color me skeptical.

How do you KNOW that those pools are low chlorine? Did you test them?

But, even if you had, that wouldn't prove anything . . . unless you RAISED the chlorine in those pools, and THEN had your daughter swim in them . . . and found that she began to experience symptoms as soon as the chlorine levels in THOSE pools went up.

Let me go back to my earlier statement: YOU have ALREADY proved, by your OWN statements about your daughter's shower habits that she's not allergic to chlorine. (I'm assuming you got the test results from the water company? THOSE would be accurate.)

Let me take it one step farther. There is NO evidence -- zip, nada, none, nothing -- that chlorine in water (so long as it STAYS in the water) EVER causes respiratory reactions. Skin reactions? Yes. Eye reactions? Yes. But respiratory reactions? No. These reactions occur ONLY when chlorine (or chlorinated compounds) get into the air.

During a shower, chlorinated volatiles are going to be released -- if present -- to a FAR, FAR greater extent, then during swimming in a pool. In a shower, almost every bit of water is exposed to the air, enabling each droplet to release any volatile irritants it contains. By contrast, MOST Of the water in a pool is not near enough to the air surface to release anything.

Let me go back to YOUR test results. You have at least two values that are untrustworthy. Your FC is 3.0, and your CYA is 100. What that most LIKELY means is that your pool water's FC is 3.0 OR ABOVE and that your CYA level is 100 or ABOVE. Above is more likely than 'at': your actual values may well be FC=17 ppm and your CYA = 340 ppm!

More than that your TDS reading is improbable. It is possible to have FC @ 3+, TA @ 110+, Cal @ 200+, & CYA @ 100+ . . . and still have a TDS of 1000. But it's not very likely. Now, the TDS reading is not really very important. But it just throws up the question of, "How reliable are your PaP store's tests?"

PaP store generally seem to do better than other pool stores. But over the years, I've seen hundreds of reports of extremely unreliable pool water testing by pool stores. One of my favorite experiments is to have neighbors go into a pool store together, BOTH carrying water samples that they PRETEND are from their own pools, but that are ACTUALLY from the SAME pool.

To date, nobody has gotten matching testing results, when the pool store tested the same water 2x!

Once you get the K2006, we can tell you how to measure and see that it actually is. You'll have to use the DPD-FAS test (instead of the DPD colorimetric PaP is probably using) to measure FC, and you'll have to do a measured dilution to test your CYA.

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I can help you, if you want to work on this in a systematic, fact-based, way.

You know you have water -- in your shower -- that is chlorinated and does NOT irritate your daughter.

You know that you have water that is chlorinated, AND that has nobody knows what-else in it, that DOES irritate your daughter.

You need to start with what you know works: shower water (ie, tap water) in your pool, and then CAREFULLY add additional chemicals, to see if ANY of them trigger the problem. If you test accurately, work systematically, and discover that chlorine -- free chlorine -- IS triggering your daughter's problem, we'll be extremely interested, but we aren't going to try to bury the results. We do NOT sell chlorine, here.

And, if you've dealt with allergies before, you already know that this step-by-step challenge process is EXACTLY the process followed medically to identify the allergen or irritant that is causing a patient problems.


BUT, if you just "want low chlorine" and the heck with the facts, we don't need to keep spending time talking about it. Just convert your pool to Baquacil (PHMB) which is the ONLY EPA recognized pool sanitizer that is chlorine free.

PHMB (Baquacil) has a host of problems as a pool treatment (we have a whole forum section about them), but it has not been (as far as I known) ever been associated with respiratory problems, at least the first 2 years it's used.

So, if you just want low chlorine, go to a store that will sell you Baquacil, Softswim or some other PHMB system, and convert.

If you drain and refill before you add PHMB, you will almost certainly eliminate whatever is triggering your daughter. BUT, if you convert in place, you run the risk that your daughter's trigger will REMAIN in the pool and cause problems. So, DRAIN FIRST!

(My guess is that your daughter is triggering off of something that forms when chlorine is mixed with whatever else is in your pool. If that is correct, you can convert without draining, and eliminate the problem. But if it's something that causes your daughter problems even when there is no chlorine . . . the problems may continue after you convert.)

Do NOT convert to an highly ozonated or a toxic heavy metal system!

Remember that ozone is a SEVERE respiratory irritant and trigger and that Nature2 is a toxic heavy metal system (both copper and silver are toxic heavy metals). They are not very toxic to humans, but they are quite toxic to other life. There is active research by an Everglades research center into the toxic effects of copper on wildlife and the eco system.)

[LarryFlorida]

Great reply pooldoc! I will read through and digest now.

I did forget one big item....sorry bout this.

My daughter used to come out of the shower sneezing like crazy after every shower. I never knew what it was....we assumed different soaps, shampoos, etc were the problem. But, she hasnt had this problem since we moved into the new house. The sneezing, etc stopped completely. I assumed it was just a change in soaps, etc. But, as I think about it, on this new house we installed a whole house water softener with a charcoal bed in it. That probably removes alot of the chlorine and who knows what else? Maybe there is something else i not chlorine in the water that is irritating? I dunno!

As for the low chlorine pools, the one I am sure of is my parents. They added an ozone unit (Delozone Eclipse 2) and while they are away in summer (snowbirds) I watch their pool and keep the chlorine as low as possible. I dont know to what FC as I never test it (my father does the rest of the year though), but I keep it right on the edge of algae (as in a couple of times during the summer with the hot pool water the FC apparently drops low enough that Ill see a small amount of algae on one section of the pool wall....its the same section every time). If my daughter swims in this pool when its in this state....no reaction. When my father used to keep the pool as the Pinchapenny recommended (i.e. 3-5 ppm chlorine) shed get the reaction like crazy.

So, anecdotal info...yes, but there is something going on with various chemistries that causes her a problem. Maybe its not chlorine but some other siuation that occurs when chlorine is above a certain level.

[LarryFlorida]

But, even if you had, that wouldn't prove anything . . . unless you RAISED the chlorine in those pools, and THEN had your daughter swim in them . . . and found that she began to experience symptoms as soon as the chlorine levels in THOSE pools went up.

Let me go back to my earlier statement: YOU have ALREADY proved, by your OWN statements about your daughter's shower habits that she's not allergic to chlorine. (I'm assuming you got the test results from the water company? THOSE would be accurate.)

Let me take it one step farther. There is NO evidence -- zip, nada, none, nothing -- that chlorine in water (so long as it STAYS in the water) EVER causes respiratory reactions. Skin reactions? Yes. Eye reactions? Yes. But respiratory reactions? No. These reactions occur ONLY when chlorine (or chlorinated compounds) get into the air.

Yes, I def assumed it was the chlorinated compounds were in the air that was the issue. Her head just bobbing right at water level would expose her to a layer of whatever gas was at water level.

Let me go back to YOUR test results. You have at least two values that are untrustworthy. Your FC is 3.0, and your CYA is 100. What that most LIKELY means is that your pool water's FC is 3.0 OR ABOVE and that your CYA level is 100 or ABOVE. Above is more likely than 'at': your actual values may well be FC=17 ppm and your CYA = 340 ppm!

More than that your TDS reading is improbable. It is possible to have FC @ 3+, TA @ 110+, Cal @ 200+, & CYA @ 100+ . . . and still have a TDS of 1000. But it's not very likely. Now, the TDS reading is not really very important. But it just throws up the question of, "How reliable are your PaP store's tests?"

Im not sure! I do know they use some sort of Taylor kit and it appeared substantial. I can check next time and see models, etc. I did see that they can read higher than 3 ppm FC though on their vials. (My kit at home tops out at 3).

As for low TDS, I suppose that could be because I have topped the pool off a number of times with water thats gone through my water softener/charcoal filter?

PaP store generally seem to do better than other pool stores. But over the years, I've seen hundreds of reports of extremely unreliable pool water testing by pool stores. One of my favorite experiments is to have neighbors go into a pool store together, BOTH carrying water samples that they PRETEND are from their own pools, but that are ACTUALLY from the SAME pool.

To date, nobody has gotten matching testing results, when the pool store tested the same water 2x!

HA! Thats a well timed statement as I tried to trick them yesterday with a sample from my hot tub that was city water. I didnt tell them anything about it, just handed them the bottle. They immediately asked if the hot tub was just refilled.

I can help you, if you want to work on this in a systematic, fact-based, way.

You know you have water -- in your shower -- that is chlorinated and does NOT irritate your daughter.

You know that you have water that is chlorinated, AND that has nobody knows what-else in it, that DOES irritate your daughter.

You need to start with what you know works: shower water (ie, tap water) in your pool, and then CAREFULLY add additional chemicals, to see if ANY of them trigger the problem. If you test accurately, work systematically, and discover that chlorine -- free chlorine -- IS triggering your daughter's problem, we'll be extremely interested, but we aren't going to try to bury the results. We do NOT sell chlorine, here.

I planned to do just this tonight. I refilled the hot tub with tap water and added nothing to it. She can soak in that awhile as a baseline.

And, if you've dealt with allergies before, you already know that this step-by-step challenge process is EXACTLY the process followed medically to identify the allergen or irritant that is causing a patient problems.


BUT, if you just "want low chlorine" and the heck with the facts, we don't need to keep spending time talking about it. Just convert your pool to Baquacil (PHMB) which is the ONLY EPA recognized pool sanitizer that is chlorine free.

PHMB (Baquacil) has a host of problems as a pool treatment (we have a whole forum section about them), but it has not been (as far as I known) ever been associated with respiratory problems, at least the first 2 years it's used.

So, if you just want low chlorine, go to a store that will sell you Baquacil, Softswim or some other PHMB system, and convert.

If you drain and refill before you add PHMB, you will almost certainly eliminate whatever is triggering your daughter. BUT, if you convert in place, you run the risk that your daughter's trigger will REMAIN in the pool and cause problems. So, DRAIN FIRST!

(My guess is that your daughter is triggering off of something that forms when chlorine is mixed with whatever else is in your pool. If that is correct, you can convert without draining, and eliminate the problem. But if it's something that causes your daughter problems even when there is no chlorine . . . the problems may continue after you convert.)

Do NOT convert to an highly ozonated or a toxic heavy metal system!

Remember that ozone is a SEVERE respiratory irritant and trigger and that Nature2 is a toxic heavy metal system (both copper and silver are toxic heavy metals). They are not very toxic to humans, but they are quite toxic to other life. There is active research by an Everglades research center into the toxic effects of copper on wildlife and the eco system.)

[/quote]

I dont dare touch that Bacquacil stuff! Heard too many stories about it online.............1-2 years down the line the pool is a mess and its tough to recover from it, etc.

[PoolDoc]

Quickly:

1. Using the hot tub as a test bed is a good idea, up to a point.

2. That point has to do with UV. There is a LOT of evidence that chlorine + UV (sunlight) breaks down problem causing chlorinated goo, that will REMAIN in the pool with chlorine alone. Ozone breaks down some of these . . . maybe, the evidence I've seen is ambiguous . . . but apparently not to the degree that chlorine + UV does. SO, a COVERED hot tub is not the best test.

3. Get the K2006. We're going to need it, to track down the problem.

4. Softeners replace other metal ions with sodium ions. This does not reduce TDS. I'm not sure about carbon.

5. We're going to need your water company's test results. These should be online at your water company's website.

6. Baquacil is problematic. But UNLIKE Nature2 or ozone, it IS a sanitizing system. In Florida, you need to drain your pool annually AND replace your filter media (sand, cartridge, DE) annually. If you do this Baquacil will work OK in pools that are not heavily loaded. But, you can NOT use it wth ozone, Nature2 (copper) or chlorine.

7. Carbon strips free chlorine. But, it does NOT strip monochloramine so well, and MC tends to be substantially more irritating than chlorine. Get the K2006, so we can see what's going on.

8. I've said enough now, so this won't surprise you: several of us have looked EXTENSIVELY. There is ZERO credible evidence that anyone is allergic to, or experiences respiratory effects from free chlorine in pool water. The absence of evidence is not proof. But it's more than enough reason to focus on other chemicals, including chlorinated by-products.

[LarryFlorida]

Quick question------

For a 500-600 gal hot tub, I am calculating that ~0.5 oz of ~10.5% liquid chlorine will raise the FC ~1 ppm. Is that close enough to correct?

[PoolDoc]

Do NOT use pool store bleach for this purpose. Industrial bleach can be quite variable in purity and contamination. For this test, use PLAIN 6% brand-name Clorox. Buy it fresh, and store it inside.

600 gallons => ~5000 lbs water
1 ppm => 5000/1,000,000 => 0.005 lb @ 100%
1 gallon of 6% bleach @ 8.6 lbs => 0.51 lbs Cl2 equivalent
So 1 gallon will add 0.51/0.005 ppm, or 102 ppm
1/8 cup is 1/128 gallon, so 1/8 cup will be 102/128 or 0.8 ppm ADDED

BUT . . . . if your original report of 0.5 FC + ~2.0 CC in your tap water was correct, your RESIDUAL (what's left, after reaction) is going to be complicated. HOCl / -OCl reacts with NH4Cl (monochloramine) like this (usually):

NH2Cl + HOCl → NHCl2 + H2O (dichloramine -- somewhat volatile, quite irritating)
and then
NHCl2 + HOCl → NCl3 + H2O (trichloramine aka nitrogen trichloride -- volatile, tear-gas-like in its effect on people)

Now, this is classic breakpoint chlorination chemistry, an old stand-by in pool treatment lore, but one that is rarely applicable. HOWEVER, in your case with your water company supplying MC treated water, it applies

Note that, at each step, you add free chlorine (HOCl), react it with a chloramine, and then get water and an MORE NOXIOUS chloramine! So, if you fill your spa with MC treated tap water with 2 ppm of MC, add 4 ppm of FC, and put your daughter in . . . she's doing to have problems! Do NOT do this.

This is the complexity that caused me to back off on the tub dosing, above.

The BEST way to get a hot tub is to
1. Get the K2006 (I believe I mentioned this before
2. Fill the spa with tap water.
3. Add 1/2 cup of 20 Mule Team borax.
4. Heat.
5. Turn on the aerator / blower / whatever for 10 minutes.
6. Test FC, CC, & pH with the K2006.
7. Add MORE borax if pH is below 8.0
8. Once pH is OK, add 5 ppm of FC per ppm of CC
9. Aerate (and KEEP YOUR DAUGHTER AWAY!)
10. Retest
11. Repeat (adj. pH, then dose with FC, then aerate)
12. Continue till you have an FC > 2.0 and a CC < 0.4.
13. If you get stuck, and aren't making progress, leave it alone for a day and LEAVE IT UNCOVERED IN THE SUN.

But, do NOT put your daughter into the spa till you have a STABLE pH between 7.6 and 8.0, a STABLE FC in the 1.0 - 4.0 range and a STABLE CC level below 0.4 ppm, and do NOT let her stand around the spa, while you are aerating, till the MC / DC / TriC is gone!

(Get a K2006!)