Best Method for Pool and Spa Sanitation for Chlorine Allergy

[LarryFlorida]

Larry,

This a complex question, that we recently addressed at great length. Instead of putting all that info here, I'm going to do what I should have done then, and write a general page I can post on PoolSolutions.

Thank you for the reply pooldoc.

Meanwhile, in order to apply that information to your situation, I need some specific info from you:

1. Do you cover your pool? Is it enclosed?

The pool is uncovered and in a screened in lanai (typical Florida installation).

2. PRECISELY what chemicals are you adding to both pool and spa? (Many times, "pool chlorine" includes problematic mystery chemicals.)

I am just using standard 3" chlorine tablets (ValueChlor I think they are called) from PinchaPenny (the large pool chain down here). For "shocking" I use the liquid chlorine from the same store. I believe its 10% concentration.

3. Do you use ANY of the following: non-chlorine shock, 'mineral' treatment, skimmer pills, algaecides, or stain treatments. If so, EXACTLY which products are you using?

None of the above. But I am thinking I may try the Pool Frog in its simplest form (the Instant Frog) mineral treatment just for yucks.

4. How do you test your water? How often?

I test it myself every day or two using test strips and standard dripper type test kits. I also follow up with having PinchaPenny test the water about once a week.

5. Which MODEL Delozone unit do you have (EC-4 -- a 1gm/hr unit) ? Do you have a degas chamber installed, downstream of the ozonator.

Yes, its the Eclipse 4 model you mentioned. There is no degas chamber installed (and doubtful theres room in piping for it).

I also bought an Eclipse 1 today which will be dedicated solely to the spa. This unit should be way overkill for the water volume, but I am really trying to minimize the chlorine.

6. Are you aware that ozone is a HIGHLY toxic gas, which triggers respiratory distress in sensitive individuals?
(Pool "ozone" is precisely the same chemical that is present in the air, when cities issue "ozone alerts" in the summer time. Ozone is considerably MORE toxic than chlorine gas!)

For sure. But, my daughter gets these symptoms even worse in pools that are straight chlorine and that are maintained at the typical higher concentrations. From what I can gather 5ppm+ isnt abnormal around here.

7. Have you ever noticed bubbles coming out of the returns, into the pool? Have you ever noticed the odor of ozone near the pool inlet closest to the pool equipment?

Yes the returns bubble but I cant really smell any ozone at the water surface. Should I? If I take the ozone tube off the venturi and take a whiff, I can definitely smell the ozone.

Also, when we swim in the pool, 90% of the time the ozone isnt even on so I am assuming that ozone cant be an issue for my daughter as far as the allergy goes.

8. How far is it, in feet, from the ozone venturi, to the nearest return inlet in the pool?

Probably close to 50 feet, maybe a bit more (as I dont know exactly how the piping runs underground, how many 90's there are, etc).

9. Have you ever tried using the pool, after turning the ozonator OFF for 2 days, but while continuing to maintain chlorine levels?

I havent tried that, but weve only been in this house a few months. Plus, we did not have solar heaters on the pool until about a month ago. So, wimps that we are the pool didnt get used much until the solar went on as ~70F water in the winter is just too cold to enjoy (as the air isnt enough warmer than that). But, the pool surely was easy to take care of when it was cold. Now that its 87-88F, its become more difficult (never mind the spa).

Is it possible in your experience to just use just a strong ozonator and the mineral type systems as primary santizers and then maybe a very small amount of non-stabilized (perhaps liquid) chlorine every few days to keep things in check? This would allow the chlorine level to be very low (to nil) while my daughter is using the pool/spa, but I could shoot chlorine up somewhat after shes done for the day, etc.

Im open to whatever. I dont view chlorine as "evil" (as Ive seen some folks online postulate), but it is definitely playing a role in my daughters health. She absolutely loves swimming (a little mermaid) so I want to do what we can to allow her to continue that enjoyment without the allergic reactions. I am quite sure if I can get the chlorine down to <1 ppm shell be fine as I tested straight city water and it was around 0.5 ppm free and 2-3 ppm combined (and my daughter has no problems with exposure to city water, which she tests DAILY when she drains the 50 gallon hot water tank with her showers....LOL). I was however surprised to see city water running a pH of 8.0.

[PoolDoc]

She absolutely loves swimming (a little mermaid) so I want to do what we can to allow her to continue that enjoyment without the allergic reactions. I am quite sure if I can get the chlorine down to <1 ppm shell be fine as I tested straight city water and it was around 0.5 ppm free and 2-3 ppm combined (and my daughter has no problems with exposure to city water, which she tests DAILY when she drains the 50 gallon hot water tank with her showers....LOL). I was however surprised to see city water running a pH of 8.0.

OK, this information above is really, really important!

It tells you -- for a near certainty -- that (1) your daughter is NOT allergic to chlorine and (2) is NOT sensitive to monochloramine (which is the form of combined chlorine you'll find in tap water at pH 8.0.

So . . . now we know the problem isn't chlorine -- though we'll confirm that she doesn't react to higher levels of chlorine, using the method described below -- but is something else. It *could* be another combined chlorine or DBP; it could be the ozone; or it could be something else. But, we'll need to confirm that it is NOT plain chlorine at higher pH.

Since you've only had the pool for a few months, you probably have not drained and refilled it. As a result, there is no telling what all has been in that water . . . and some contaminants are quite long lasting.

You are in Florida, so I'm guessing your pool is concrete? If so, you *probably* can drain and refill it safely, if it hasn't been raining too much. But, you aren't ready for that, yet.

Do this:

1. Order a Taylor K2006 or K2006C (the 2006C costs about 50% more, but has 3x as many 'tests' in it). You can use the Amazon links in my signature or -- once you know what you are looking for -- you can order elsewhere. BUT do NOT confuse the K2005 with the K2006 -- you will need the accurate chlorine test available only in the K2006.

2. Once you have it, test your tap water 2x on 2 different days, and then post the results here. Assuming results are what you've describe above, you can move to step 3.

3. Draw a full tub of water for your daughter -- she can wear a swim suit for this, if she likes -- and add 2 teaspoons of 6% household bleach. Stir & mix. You should see a chlorine level of around 5 - 10 ppm, depending on the gallons in the tub. Add more bleach as needed, till you are at 10 ppm. Test the pH level -- if it is below 7.6, add 1/4 cup of baking soda, mix, and retest. Add more as needed till you are above 7.6.
[I just realized that, due to the presence of monochloramine, we'll need to use a more complex method than I describe, since adding chlorine will begin to break down the monochloramine. I want to talk to Chem_Geek about this, but I'll work out a process by the time you have the K2006 test results back to us.]

Ask your daughter to come in, lean over the tub, and then splash the water around. Wait a few minutes, and see if she has any reaction. If not, have her get into the tub, and splash around. If at any time, she begins to react, have her get out.

If she has NO reaction after 30 minutes, she can get out -- you're done.

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You will have established reliably that chlorine is NOT the problem.

At that point, you'll need to plan to drain the pool, clean, and refill. Once you have you'll need to operate the pool ONLY with 6% household bleach, baking soda and calcium chloride (Calcium increaser) -- no ozone; no stabilizer; no additives of ANY kind.

But, before you refill, you'll also want to check: you need to make sure NO one is peeing in the pool. Many young children do; virtually ALL competitive swimmers do. But, chlorine and urine do NOT react gracefully, and some of the by products CAN be irritating. Also, you will want to make sure that NO one is doing what we used to call (when I had several guys servicing large commercial pools) "slipping and dipping" -- greasing up with body oil or lotion, heating up in the sun, and then rinsing it off in the pool

You will need to be very careful to avoid adding lotions, perfumes and oils to the pool. If anyone swims with sunscreen, they'll need to be careful to wipe off all excess, till you have fully finished testing. These sort of product may not be a problem by themselves, but they may be a problem once they react with the chlorine.

The LAST thing you want to have happen, is have several unknown chemicals added to the pool, and experience a sudden transition from a pool that is NOT irritating, to one that is . . . but NOT be able to determine what the 'bad actor' was.

So, it's very important to limit what goes into the pool, either directly or on people. That way, we can add other chemicals, one at a time, after you verify in the tub that she doesn't react to them.

Once we get to a minimum number of key chemicals, you can stop, if you like. But ideally, you'll want to determine that you can use all of the following:

1. Bleach
2. Baking soda (not a problem)
3. Calcium chloride (not a problem, unless contaminated)
4. Borax (very unlikely to be a problem)
5. Stabilizer or cyanuric acid (very unlikely to be a problem, unless contaminate)
6. Polyquat algaecide (helpful, but not essential)

You can test the borax, stabilizer, and polyquat, in the tub, like you did the chlorine. That way, if one IS the problem, you can avoid adding to the pool, and being forced to drain it.

It is ABSOLUTELY critical that you not use anything not on the list above. It is particularly important that you not use any of the blended trichlor tablets, shocks, or other chemical hodge-podge products sold at Walmart and most pool stores. Once you contaminate the pool with those, you will have lost control, since you will no longer know what is in the pool.

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I hope this is clear.

[LarryFlorida]

Thank you for the reply pooldoc.

I do have a test kit, but not sure its a Taylor one. Ill check tonight. It does have 5 or 6 reagent bottles in the kit, so I believe it can test more than just pH and chlorine.

The test on the pool water I got yesterday at Pinchapenny (they do use Taylor equipment as I checked) showed----

TC = 3.0ppm
FC=3.0ppm
CC=0.0ppm
pH=7.8
Acid demand=2
Base demand=not tested
TA=110ppm
CH=200ppm
Stabilizer=100ppm
TDS=1000ppm


With what I know about pool chemistry (which is little but I am learning quickly by necessity!) the stabilizer (which I believe is CYA) is rather high compared to what most folks on the forum seem to run? And higher CYA typically means higher FC is needed? So, if I can get the stabilizer lower, I can run lower FC?

You are in Florida, so I'm guessing your pool is concrete? If so, you *probably* can drain and refill it safely, if it hasn't been raining too much. But, you aren't ready for that, yet.

Yes, its an "old school" pool from ~1980, but was refinished with some type of quartz finish ~3 years ago. Its not the Pebbletec or Pebblesheen finish, but something a little smoother. I think it might be Marquis or something like that.

[LarryFlorida]

It tells you -- for a near certainty -- that (1) your daughter is NOT allergic to chlorine and (2) is NOT sensitive to monochloramine (which is the form of combined chlorine you'll find in tap water at pH 8.0.

What are the other forms of chloramines that can cause respiratory issues? Are there any?

I ask as I know for certain that if my daughter swims in a pool with very low chlorine, she does not get the symptoms. Now, could it be some reaction in the "chemical soup" that is pool water that is reduced when FC is low and its not an actual chlorine allergy?

[PoolDoc]

What are the other forms of chloramines that can cause respiratory issues? Are there any?

One of the scientific articles I recently archived attempted to enumerate chlorinated by-products, and ID'd upwards of 500 compounds. They are very hard to distinguish, and doing so is literally a matter of 'cutting edge' research.

As a class, these compounds tend to be irritating, to eyes, skin, and lungs. But you have to understand: scientists and researchers can barely distinguish these compounds; they are no where close determining the health effects specific to each compound.

Also, because researchers have not been able to tell one compound from another, they have -- even in scholarly articles -- referred to them as "chlorine" or "chloramines". But that is almost as bad as referring to that "dangerous chemical used in many kitchens, sodium chloride". (If you don't know, sodium chloride is table salt . . . and it is dangerous. Over use of it kills more people each year (via high blood pressure, etc.) than the "dangerous chlorine compounds" in drinking water do.

Another area of new research is attempting to move past current crude measures of health risk ("eating peanut butter results in 109 additional new cases of cancer per 1,000,000 people per year") to relative health effects ("cutting table salt use back to less than 1000 mg per day will extend the life of average French citizen living on the European continent by 0.72 years, and will enhance their life during their last decade by 31 points, using the standard WHO Quality of Life index").

But, right now, they are still working on simply being able to test and measure those compounds.

I ask as I know for certain that if my daughter swims in a pool with very low chlorine, she does not get the symptoms. Now, could it be some reaction in the "chemical soup" that is pool water that is reduced when FC is low and its not an actual chlorine allergy?

Uh-h. Color me skeptical.

How do you KNOW that those pools are low chlorine? Did you test them?

But, even if you had, that wouldn't prove anything . . . unless you RAISED the chlorine in those pools, and THEN had your daughter swim in them . . . and found that she began to experience symptoms as soon as the chlorine levels in THOSE pools went up.

Let me go back to my earlier statement: YOU have ALREADY proved, by your OWN statements about your daughter's shower habits that she's not allergic to chlorine. (I'm assuming you got the test results from the water company? THOSE would be accurate.)

Let me take it one step farther. There is NO evidence -- zip, nada, none, nothing -- that chlorine in water (so long as it STAYS in the water) EVER causes respiratory reactions. Skin reactions? Yes. Eye reactions? Yes. But respiratory reactions? No. These reactions occur ONLY when chlorine (or chlorinated compounds) get into the air.

During a shower, chlorinated volatiles are going to be released -- if present -- to a FAR, FAR greater extent, then during swimming in a pool. In a shower, almost every bit of water is exposed to the air, enabling each droplet to release any volatile irritants it contains. By contrast, MOST Of the water in a pool is not near enough to the air surface to release anything.

Let me go back to YOUR test results. You have at least two values that are untrustworthy. Your FC is 3.0, and your CYA is 100. What that most LIKELY means is that your pool water's FC is 3.0 OR ABOVE and that your CYA level is 100 or ABOVE. Above is more likely than 'at': your actual values may well be FC=17 ppm and your CYA = 340 ppm!

More than that your TDS reading is improbable. It is possible to have FC @ 3+, TA @ 110+, Cal @ 200+, & CYA @ 100+ . . . and still have a TDS of 1000. But it's not very likely. Now, the TDS reading is not really very important. But it just throws up the question of, "How reliable are your PaP store's tests?"

PaP store generally seem to do better than other pool stores. But over the years, I've seen hundreds of reports of extremely unreliable pool water testing by pool stores. One of my favorite experiments is to have neighbors go into a pool store together, BOTH carrying water samples that they PRETEND are from their own pools, but that are ACTUALLY from the SAME pool.

To date, nobody has gotten matching testing results, when the pool store tested the same water 2x!

Once you get the K2006, we can tell you how to measure and see that it actually is. You'll have to use the DPD-FAS test (instead of the DPD colorimetric PaP is probably using) to measure FC, and you'll have to do a measured dilution to test your CYA.

================================================== ================

I can help you, if you want to work on this in a systematic, fact-based, way.

You know you have water -- in your shower -- that is chlorinated and does NOT irritate your daughter.

You know that you have water that is chlorinated, AND that has nobody knows what-else in it, that DOES irritate your daughter.

You need to start with what you know works: shower water (ie, tap water) in your pool, and then CAREFULLY add additional chemicals, to see if ANY of them trigger the problem. If you test accurately, work systematically, and discover that chlorine -- free chlorine -- IS triggering your daughter's problem, we'll be extremely interested, but we aren't going to try to bury the results. We do NOT sell chlorine, here.

And, if you've dealt with allergies before, you already know that this step-by-step challenge process is EXACTLY the process followed medically to identify the allergen or irritant that is causing a patient problems.


BUT, if you just "want low chlorine" and the heck with the facts, we don't need to keep spending time talking about it. Just convert your pool to Baquacil (PHMB) which is the ONLY EPA recognized pool sanitizer that is chlorine free.

PHMB (Baquacil) has a host of problems as a pool treatment (we have a whole forum section about them), but it has not been (as far as I known) ever been associated with respiratory problems, at least the first 2 years it's used.

So, if you just want low chlorine, go to a store that will sell you Baquacil, Softswim or some other PHMB system, and convert.

If you drain and refill before you add PHMB, you will almost certainly eliminate whatever is triggering your daughter. BUT, if you convert in place, you run the risk that your daughter's trigger will REMAIN in the pool and cause problems. So, DRAIN FIRST!

(My guess is that your daughter is triggering off of something that forms when chlorine is mixed with whatever else is in your pool. If that is correct, you can convert without draining, and eliminate the problem. But if it's something that causes your daughter problems even when there is no chlorine . . . the problems may continue after you convert.)

Do NOT convert to an highly ozonated or a toxic heavy metal system!

Remember that ozone is a SEVERE respiratory irritant and trigger and that Nature2 is a toxic heavy metal system (both copper and silver are toxic heavy metals). They are not very toxic to humans, but they are quite toxic to other life. There is active research by an Everglades research center into the toxic effects of copper on wildlife and the eco system.)

[LarryFlorida]

Great reply pooldoc! I will read through and digest now.

I did forget one big item....sorry bout this.

My daughter used to come out of the shower sneezing like crazy after every shower. I never knew what it was....we assumed different soaps, shampoos, etc were the problem. But, she hasnt had this problem since we moved into the new house. The sneezing, etc stopped completely. I assumed it was just a change in soaps, etc. But, as I think about it, on this new house we installed a whole house water softener with a charcoal bed in it. That probably removes alot of the chlorine and who knows what else? Maybe there is something else i not chlorine in the water that is irritating? I dunno!

As for the low chlorine pools, the one I am sure of is my parents. They added an ozone unit (Delozone Eclipse 2) and while they are away in summer (snowbirds) I watch their pool and keep the chlorine as low as possible. I dont know to what FC as I never test it (my father does the rest of the year though), but I keep it right on the edge of algae (as in a couple of times during the summer with the hot pool water the FC apparently drops low enough that Ill see a small amount of algae on one section of the pool wall....its the same section every time). If my daughter swims in this pool when its in this state....no reaction. When my father used to keep the pool as the Pinchapenny recommended (i.e. 3-5 ppm chlorine) shed get the reaction like crazy.

So, anecdotal info...yes, but there is something going on with various chemistries that causes her a problem. Maybe its not chlorine but some other siuation that occurs when chlorine is above a certain level.

[LarryFlorida]

But, even if you had, that wouldn't prove anything . . . unless you RAISED the chlorine in those pools, and THEN had your daughter swim in them . . . and found that she began to experience symptoms as soon as the chlorine levels in THOSE pools went up.

Let me go back to my earlier statement: YOU have ALREADY proved, by your OWN statements about your daughter's shower habits that she's not allergic to chlorine. (I'm assuming you got the test results from the water company? THOSE would be accurate.)

Let me take it one step farther. There is NO evidence -- zip, nada, none, nothing -- that chlorine in water (so long as it STAYS in the water) EVER causes respiratory reactions. Skin reactions? Yes. Eye reactions? Yes. But respiratory reactions? No. These reactions occur ONLY when chlorine (or chlorinated compounds) get into the air.

Yes, I def assumed it was the chlorinated compounds were in the air that was the issue. Her head just bobbing right at water level would expose her to a layer of whatever gas was at water level.

Let me go back to YOUR test results. You have at least two values that are untrustworthy. Your FC is 3.0, and your CYA is 100. What that most LIKELY means is that your pool water's FC is 3.0 OR ABOVE and that your CYA level is 100 or ABOVE. Above is more likely than 'at': your actual values may well be FC=17 ppm and your CYA = 340 ppm!

More than that your TDS reading is improbable. It is possible to have FC @ 3+, TA @ 110+, Cal @ 200+, & CYA @ 100+ . . . and still have a TDS of 1000. But it's not very likely. Now, the TDS reading is not really very important. But it just throws up the question of, "How reliable are your PaP store's tests?"

Im not sure! I do know they use some sort of Taylor kit and it appeared substantial. I can check next time and see models, etc. I did see that they can read higher than 3 ppm FC though on their vials. (My kit at home tops out at 3).

As for low TDS, I suppose that could be because I have topped the pool off a number of times with water thats gone through my water softener/charcoal filter?

PaP store generally seem to do better than other pool stores. But over the years, I've seen hundreds of reports of extremely unreliable pool water testing by pool stores. One of my favorite experiments is to have neighbors go into a pool store together, BOTH carrying water samples that they PRETEND are from their own pools, but that are ACTUALLY from the SAME pool.

To date, nobody has gotten matching testing results, when the pool store tested the same water 2x!

HA! Thats a well timed statement as I tried to trick them yesterday with a sample from my hot tub that was city water. I didnt tell them anything about it, just handed them the bottle. They immediately asked if the hot tub was just refilled.

I can help you, if you want to work on this in a systematic, fact-based, way.

You know you have water -- in your shower -- that is chlorinated and does NOT irritate your daughter.

You know that you have water that is chlorinated, AND that has nobody knows what-else in it, that DOES irritate your daughter.

You need to start with what you know works: shower water (ie, tap water) in your pool, and then CAREFULLY add additional chemicals, to see if ANY of them trigger the problem. If you test accurately, work systematically, and discover that chlorine -- free chlorine -- IS triggering your daughter's problem, we'll be extremely interested, but we aren't going to try to bury the results. We do NOT sell chlorine, here.

I planned to do just this tonight. I refilled the hot tub with tap water and added nothing to it. She can soak in that awhile as a baseline.

And, if you've dealt with allergies before, you already know that this step-by-step challenge process is EXACTLY the process followed medically to identify the allergen or irritant that is causing a patient problems.


BUT, if you just "want low chlorine" and the heck with the facts, we don't need to keep spending time talking about it. Just convert your pool to Baquacil (PHMB) which is the ONLY EPA recognized pool sanitizer that is chlorine free.

PHMB (Baquacil) has a host of problems as a pool treatment (we have a whole forum section about them), but it has not been (as far as I known) ever been associated with respiratory problems, at least the first 2 years it's used.

So, if you just want low chlorine, go to a store that will sell you Baquacil, Softswim or some other PHMB system, and convert.

If you drain and refill before you add PHMB, you will almost certainly eliminate whatever is triggering your daughter. BUT, if you convert in place, you run the risk that your daughter's trigger will REMAIN in the pool and cause problems. So, DRAIN FIRST!

(My guess is that your daughter is triggering off of something that forms when chlorine is mixed with whatever else is in your pool. If that is correct, you can convert without draining, and eliminate the problem. But if it's something that causes your daughter problems even when there is no chlorine . . . the problems may continue after you convert.)

Do NOT convert to an highly ozonated or a toxic heavy metal system!

Remember that ozone is a SEVERE respiratory irritant and trigger and that Nature2 is a toxic heavy metal system (both copper and silver are toxic heavy metals). They are not very toxic to humans, but they are quite toxic to other life. There is active research by an Everglades research center into the toxic effects of copper on wildlife and the eco system.)

[/quote]

I dont dare touch that Bacquacil stuff! Heard too many stories about it online.............1-2 years down the line the pool is a mess and its tough to recover from it, etc.

[PoolDoc]

Quickly:

1. Using the hot tub as a test bed is a good idea, up to a point.

2. That point has to do with UV. There is a LOT of evidence that chlorine + UV (sunlight) breaks down problem causing chlorinated goo, that will REMAIN in the pool with chlorine alone. Ozone breaks down some of these . . . maybe, the evidence I've seen is ambiguous . . . but apparently not to the degree that chlorine + UV does. SO, a COVERED hot tub is not the best test.

3. Get the K2006. We're going to need it, to track down the problem.

4. Softeners replace other metal ions with sodium ions. This does not reduce TDS. I'm not sure about carbon.

5. We're going to need your water company's test results. These should be online at your water company's website.

6. Baquacil is problematic. But UNLIKE Nature2 or ozone, it IS a sanitizing system. In Florida, you need to drain your pool annually AND replace your filter media (sand, cartridge, DE) annually. If you do this Baquacil will work OK in pools that are not heavily loaded. But, you can NOT use it wth ozone, Nature2 (copper) or chlorine.

7. Carbon strips free chlorine. But, it does NOT strip monochloramine so well, and MC tends to be substantially more irritating than chlorine. Get the K2006, so we can see what's going on.

8. I've said enough now, so this won't surprise you: several of us have looked EXTENSIVELY. There is ZERO credible evidence that anyone is allergic to, or experiences respiratory effects from free chlorine in pool water. The absence of evidence is not proof. But it's more than enough reason to focus on other chemicals, including chlorinated by-products.

[LarryFlorida]

Quick question------

For a 500-600 gal hot tub, I am calculating that ~0.5 oz of ~10.5% liquid chlorine will raise the FC ~1 ppm. Is that close enough to correct?