Need help with algue in a oxygen pool

[giroup01]

"Oxygen" as used here probably means hydrogen peroxyde, popular in Europe as a "substitute" for chlorine/bromine.

[PoolDoc]

Thanks for that tip, Paul.

Is there any data you've seen published on the use of peroxide as a primary pool sanitizer? (I think we can safely hijack this thread -- the OP hasn't been back since her first post.)

[chem geek]

Hydrogen peroxide is not approved by the EPA as a swimming pool or spa disinfectant (though it is used as an oxidizer in Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB pools/spas), but it is approved for pools and especially spas in Australia, though the level required (50 ppm) can be irritating. Note that the Sanosil products are a combination of hydrogen peroxide and silver ions.

[CarlD]

Hi Richard!
Amanda is in Spain. Do you know anything about European use of H2O2?

Carl

[chem geek]

Commercial/public pools in many countries in Europe follow the DIN 19643 standard which is lower levels of chlorine (0.3 to 0.6 ppm without ozone; 0.2 to 0.5 ppm with ozone) with no CYA combined with coagulation/filtration and granular activated carbon (used to remove THMs and other DBPs, but also removes chlorine with each pass). As for residential pools, I don't know if hydrogen peroxide is popular in Spain.

[PMS SAyMI]

Hi Guys - wow this site is great my first post and what a response - thank you everyone. The reason I have not been back since is 2 reasons the first is work has been tremendously busy and the second reason is I forgot to save the site to my favourites and could not find the site again or the thread and no im not blonde.

Oxygen is potassium monopersulfate - although most pools in Spain are chlorine with a small percentage salt oxygen is used for the rich and famous if you like.

All the workers in my company use the photometers with tablets not drops as we think these are the most accurate in the market here is Spain, dip strips rely on eyesight and individual error.

Products here in Spain are terrible - still trying to find a product for mustard algae that actually works, have even tried importing from USA still waiting 2 years on for the license. Cant get buckman products infact never heard of them. We basically have to rely on chlorine, ph plus and minus and antialgas products we do have astral here it is the biggest company in Spain for products dont know if you know them.

I agree with most people that say they are allergic are not but now this pool / spa must stay as Oxygen, so need to find a solution that works with it.

To be honest was using stabilized Chlorine as when the cleaner is in (all morning 5 days a week) all the doors and windows are open leaving the spa very exposed so thought it would do no harm.

Ben - I dont want your pool fraudsters but thanks for the thought.

Look forward to hearing your continued thoughts, and will start a new post shortly regarding advise on mustard algae, really appreciate all the help guys as to be honest can be very hard staying on top of things in a country where products and information are so difficult to obtain. I really want our company to continue to hold the lead in this country and I think with the help of this forum it will be possible I cant tell you how many hours i spend researching different problems, solutions and ideas.

Amanda

[PoolDoc]

A couple of quick responses.

1. So far as I know, potassium monopersulfate is NOT a microbiocide -- and it's not a great oxidizer. If you don't have an effective microbiocide in that pool, it's not a safe pool!

2. There two products sold in the USA as "mustard algae" products -- ammonium sulfate or chloride OR sodium bromide. Both are used in conjunction with chlorine; neither has any effect on mustard algae alone; both CHEMICALS are available in Europe, just not via pool distribution.

3. If you want us to help you, you'll need to tell us the CHEMICAL NAME of the products available to you. Once you have, we may be able to work something out. Include cost info, so we can see what's practical and what's not.

4. Check and see if borax is available, possibly as a cleaner or laundry aid. (Sodium tetraborate *hydrate)

5. Test strips are not -- as you suspect -- very accurate. Tablets can be fairly accurate, though usually not as accurate as a titration.

6. If you are doing color matching, you need to test all your employees for color discrimination. In my work, I found that few staff people were actually color-blind, but that MANY (>10%) of guys were 'color-dumb', in the sense that they'd never learned to pay attention to color differences and so had to be trained to see the different shades. You can get some really nasty results if you have a couple of workers who consistently misread the Palin color blocks!

7. Just to repeat: if you are sanitizing the pool with Oxone (monopersulfate), you are NOT sanitizing the pool!

8. Let us know how much natural light the pool gets: it's very unusual to get algae in a pool unless it gets a lot of natural light.

[PMS SAyMI]

Hey Ben thanks for the replies - tomo when i have a little more time I will go through the products and write down all the contents, until then just wanted to let you know we use a digital photometer so no room for personal error only machine error.

Amanda

[chem geek]

Ben is correct that potassium monopersulfate is NOT a disinfectant. It does not kill bacteria quickly enough to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 nor DIN 19643 at swimming pool temperatures. These stringent requirements require 6-log (99.9999%) kill times in 30 seconds or less of Escherichia coli while MPS at 77ºF only does a 16.8% inactivation in 2 minutes so a 6-log kill would take around 10 minutes assuming one is maintaining a consistent MPS level. The only time it is used as a disinfectant is at hot spa temperatures along with silver ions as in the Nature2 product (the higher temperatures along with some effects from the silver ions combine to speed up kill times).

It is a selective oxidizer though I wouldn't say it is great. In spas that use silver ions + MPS, they usually need to use chlorine once a week or so to keep the water clear. MPS will oxidize some chemicals that chlorine won't and vice versa. As one example, in this paper, it was disclosed that MPS does not react very quickly with ammonium ion. Since chlorine does react quickly, monochloramine will be formed and MPS does not react with it before chlorine either. In the past, people were saying that MPS would oxidize ammonia and other chemicals before chlorine got a chance to and would therefore prevent disinfection by-product formation, but at least for ammonia that simply isn't true. MPS can react with unsaturated organic compounds (i.e. those with carbon-carbon double bonds) to form epoxides that can make them more soluble and it appears to oxidize creatinine and some other organics, possibly faster than chlorine though it does not appear to oxidize urea which is the largest nitrogenous component of sweat and urine (at least not without metal catalysts).

MPS can also be irritating, though this mostly comes from the minor contaminant potassium persulfate (aka peroxydisulfate) of 3% in Oxone. This irritating contaminant can be quickly removed in the presence of silver ions which is probably why Nature2 using silver ion and MPS is not normally irritating.

[PoolDoc]

Thanks for the subscription, Amanda.

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