New Pool SWG & other questions

[PoolDoc]

Thanks again. So where would you recomend I keep my chlorine levels at?

You need to follow the Best Guess chart . . . which means your correct FC levels are determined by your CYA level. Keep in mind that if your CYA level is below 40, you'll have high chlorine loss to sunlight.

Why would I get small black spots in my plaster if the chlorine is at 2 like it is and I have the SWG and the mineral cartridge?

Your spots could be:
#1 - black algae, OR
#2 - copper oxide staining on some element in the pool coat, OR
#3 - something else.

To test for black algae: get a plain uncolored toothpick -- preferably flat -- and scrape off a bit of the black spot. If you can not do so -- it's not black algae. Smear the bit you scraped off on a white piece of paper -- a 3 x 5 card is perfect, then use a knife or spoon to spread it out. Black algae, spread thin, will be dark green. If it's any other color, it's not black algae.

To test for copper stains: put a vitamin C tablet on one of the stains. If the vitamin C lightens the spot, it's probably copper.

If both tests fail, we'll have to re-think.

But you seem to have some misconceptions about your equipment:

+ Most 'mineral' units do nothing. Those that 'work' add enough copper to cause staining. A few still include silver, which WILL cause black stains, but usually not localized ones.

+ Contrary to what many people think, a salt system (SWCG => Salt Water Chlorine Generator) is nothing more than a way to add chlorine to your pool. With an SWCG, an electrical current is passed through a solution (pool water) containing sufficient salt (chloride - Cl-) so that chlorine (Cl+) can be generated.

+ Phosphate removers are occasionally helpful, always messy, but never essential.

+ Adequate chlorine levels MUST be determined by the Best Guess chart, which sets chlorine level based on CYA level.

+ To PREVENT black algae, simply maintaining correct chlorine levels, per the BG chart is enough.

+ To CONTROL black algae, once established, it's necessary to maintain shock levels (BG chart again) for long periods of time AND to brush the areas where algae appears.

+ To ERADICATE black algae -- on concrete pools -- usually requires draining the pool.

[maglib]

You can't scrape it, it looks like it's actually part of the plaster.
The vitamin C did nothing either.

When weather changes I'll try to get some pictures. It looks like more spots every day. We had a lot of rain recently.

Can I not replace the ozonator and just keep using the SWCG? Seems I really don't like the idea of the metals in an ozonator and when my chlorine levels are low as they say they can be, I get all types of frogs in my filters and other bugs. When I maintain chlorine over 2.0 I don't have a problem with the creatures as much.

I contacted the company of the system asking about the fact that my pool is over the 40k limit and they never responded. I think I'll call.

I'm going to call pool company about possibly getting a lawyer regarding the concrete, possibly the SWG being too small, and the DE filter not being in accordance with town requirements.

Thanks for all ou help.

[maglib]

I can't see my reply I guess because I'm new otherwise I'd edit last message.
I checked the Best guess chart and what I don't understand is the accuracy of this when using a SWCG and mineral cartridge.

Since I was told to get my CYA up to 80 but my chlorine levels need to be only .5 since I have the mineral cartridge. On our own we're getting them to between 1-2 but this chart tells us they need to be even higher.

I can't remove the mineral cartridge as there is nothing to cap it.

Appreciation once again.

[PoolDoc]

Pictures of everything would help. If you take them, send them -- full size! -- to poolforum AT gmail DOT com or poolforum.pics AT gmail DOT com.

We don't have recommended chlorine levels IF you actually have metals (Cu &/or Ag) in your pool water. Mineral cartridges come in two types: those that are worthless, because they do nothing, and those that are WORSE than worthless because they put uncontrolled and unpredictable amounts of metals in your water.

I'm you might try Iron Out, but I'm not sure that it would remove silver, if that's what the stain is.

If you can report models and mfgs on the mineral unit and the ozone unit that would help.

Ben

[CarlD]

What you need is a lawyer who does litigation. If you give Ben permission to give me your eMail address, I can contact you off-line and see what we can find. We have almost as many lawyers in NJ as we have diners, and badly marked roads! It also depends on where you are in the Garden State. I personally know lawyers who do criminal (like traffic or worse), real estate, personal estates and wills, adoptions, and labor law. But a lawyer who sues someone for you for non-performance of a contract (or defends you against it) is not one I've yet had to use. However, they aren't hard to find.

Unfortunately, I think it's messy. They didn't install the DE filter and didn't install the code drain for it. They installed an inadequate SWCG and stuck you with a Nature2 attachment (did you actually agree to Nature2?). The concrete deck is cracking and stained. The pool surfaces is stained. And the chemical advice they are giving you is (mostly) wrong and will cause algae.

Carl

[maglib]

I called pool company and basically left them message that I can't believe nobody has come to look at concrete, that it takes a month to cure and they have to still install the loop loc cover (the pool com owes us a cover still) along with the DE filter. I also said if we didn't hear back we didn't want to but would have to speak with our lawyer. Well they didn't call back. So i'm hiring a lawyer easy win as they still didn't put DE filter in and the concrete wasn't done in accordance with code (rolling edges, stains from bad mix are easy, the cracks immediately). So if I can send you my info, please let me know of a good lawyer. Of course we have to remediate first.......

MY PC won't let me attach camera as I'm having USB ports issue (HP issue) so I'm going to get my son to take pics. You can't scrape the black off at all, vitamin C did nothing. I have less than 200ppb of phospates so it shouldn't be algae. Iron test showed nothing. Can't figure it out other than maybe bad mix of plaster and it's the garbage coming through.

Another question. Phos Free was used to get rid of phosphates and we have cartridge filter. We cleaned filter after using phos free and there wasn't anything that we saw on the filter. Now if we do the weekly dosage (I know we don't have to but I don't want pool company to have any excuses) do we have to clean and pull cartridges out every week?

Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

Hi Maglib;

A caution and a question:

Do you want me to send Carl your email address, so he can give you the names of some attorneys?

* and *

Be CAREFUL -- if you are getting a lawyer involved, do NOT follow our chemical advice. Follow your pool company's advice! It doesn't matter whether it works or not; what matters is what you said, and that's not giving them an excuse!

The "BBB Method" works . . . but it is NOT pool industry standard (which often doesn't work!) and you need to follow the 'recognized standards' OR your dealer / builder's instructions.

So don't even ASK us how to do your chemistry -- our way is NOT the right way under the circumstances.

In fact, for now it would probably be in your best interest to stay off the forum, except to get Carl's info, or suggestions about how to proceed with your case. I hope you'll come back once things are settled, but for your sake, you don't want our chemical advice right now.

Good luck!

Ben

[maglib]

Thankfully I've listened to pool company so far and I've done everything they said other than the ph won't come down. We had a ton of rain so now working on getting chemicals back in sync we had to drain over 4 inches at least when the storm hit and possibly 7, just ran it out for over 12 hours. My FC has never been over 1 and I have every test done by 3rd parties.

Give him my email address as I've got to proceed unless i want to be stuck with ugly cracking concrete and possibly bad plaster work. Wish they would just do it right the first time or follow up. I'm not one to hire an attorney but I'm also not going to be stuck with garbage in my yard costing me obscene money to fix.

Will still send pictures but I went out there and one thing I noticed was that some of the black felt like actually small pieces of wood or metal that can be scratched out of the plaster. Most just looks like stains, some real small and others about 1cm wide. When they come to replace filter i'll ask about it again.I'm starting to feel it was in the plaster mix and just coming up as the plaster cures.

We've got a Nature 2 fusion soft system. Wish we found this site and did research better but we all make mistakes believing what we read and the salesperson....

You may be right they might read the forum as surprises arose today that they're coming to replace the filter although they still refuse to do it in accordance with code saying the tank is our responsibility.

Amazing that the pool company doesnt want to keep customers happy and do things right. All I want is a pool in accordance with code and agreement and concrete that's clean and not cracked and done in accordance with code. I guess that's too much to ask. Isn't it easier and more profitable to do things right the first time and not rush? If they don't fix it, I'll do a come check out my pool on different opinion web sites for both concrete and pools and let people see/read what they may not want.

Thanks everyone. I am very much obliged by all the help. I hope and pray that I don't end up having to fight for what should be done but I will if they force it. The BBB is only a first step.

Take care all.

[PoolDoc]

I've emailed Carl.

Good luck. Hope we see you here again, after all this is resolved.

Ben