Plug? Strong suction leak in liner.

[cjane68]

3 yrs ago we discovered a leak about the size of a quarter in the deep end of the pool wall. We were able to successfully patch the leak then with a small section of excess liner and adhesive. Unfortunately, the leak has returned, and with a vengeance. The leak 3 yrs ago had still had a pretty solid wall of vermiculite behind it, which was still smooth and flat. Now however, we can see small particles (slightly larger than eraser size) being sucked right into the hole.

To me, it seems that in order to patch again, there must be something place within the hole, almost like a filler, or backing, in order for the patch to have a smooth even surface to adhere to. I'm a visual person, so I envision the equivalent of applying a patch over a vacuum cleaner hose. Without something firm on the hose first, the patch would quickly become unstable and inverted.

Is this assumption correct? If so, is there a plug? or product? for such.

Thanks in advance.

[PoolDoc]

Seems to me that if you are patching a liner that has an eroded area behind it, well, it seems to me you are in trouble.

I'm not experienced with liner pools however.

[waste]

Welcome to the Forum!

Here is a thread with some of my liner patching tips.

How deep and far around is the washed out vermiculite? (this will effect the viability of patching and the method used to patch.)

I'm thinking you might be able to patch the hole itself, then fill the dimple with sand and put a larger patch over the dimple and sand. (yeah, I foresee a couple possible issues with that, but it's a 'work in progress' )

Please keep us informed and we'll help as much as we can.

[cjane68]

Thanks for the response Ted. The hole is about 2 in. x 1 in.. In a panic as the water was dropping at a rate of about 1inch per hour, even with water being consistently added via water hose, we devised a makeshift patch out of a raincoat. The section we use is about 12 in. x 12 in. This held overnight (this was two nights ago) and bought enough time to contact a couple of the area pool companies. Of course, the only suggestions were to re-liner or patch.

Around 2pm yesterday, the hubs made his hourly check on the water level and noticed it was once again dropping aggressively. He dove in to inspect and found that the 12 x 12 patch (adhesive was NOT used) was now sucked into the opening to at least 2 inches. From my understanding of his description, it sounds like the actions would be the same if placing the 12 x12 patch horizontally on a 1 in circumference vacuum hose. He carefully check with his finger and was unable to tell exactly how far inward the hole goes, but was able to (with his index finger) feel the backside of the raincoat patch.

Your suggestions to patch, then add sand and patch over that, is the most promising of anything we have thought of at the moment. I'm curious if we would be better off to leave the heavy gauge raincoat patch, trimming down the excess and attempting to add adhesive to the edges, then adding sand, and finally adding the final outer patch?

**Additional info that may or may not be pertinent to the issue. Our choice would be to just go ahead and reline the pool. It is 15 yrs old now. However, our pool liner situation is rather unique from what we are told. Fifteen years ago when we had our (only one within 40 miles) local pool company install the pool, they hit what they referred to as a spring, about 5 ft down. In order to complete the construction, the "spring" was diverted via a pool pump using a backwash hose to a ditch, about 150 ft from pool (dug out years ago by neighbors, as an outlet for excess rainwater). I recall the water pumping strong (the strength of a good backwash) for 3 days until the liner was installed. At that point the pool fellas returned the hose to the pool and our pool was completely filled from this water source. Once the pool was filled (16 x 36), the pool guys capped off the Spring pipe (stands vertically alongside the pool pump, which is housed in a covered shed next to pool).

Please forgive me if I'm giving too much info that is unnecessary, but I'm really oblivious to the ins and outs of pool maintenance and the hubs is best known for not providing enough info.

*Other details which may or may not affect current issue. Two years after the pool was installed, we began noticing slight shifts beneath the deep end liner. Apparently, this was due to the vermiculite shifting beneath liner. Hubs contacted pool company and was told that the slippage was due to the Spring and was not covered under warranty. We battled them like crazy over the issue, but they would never do anything about it, which in retrospect, we shouldn't have taken their word for it that it was the Spring (which it very well may have been).

As you can imagine, the slippage has become worse every year, now leaving the appearance of a vinyl version of the Grand Canyon. I'm really quite shocked that we only have this one leak. I will attempt to post photos today to show just how extreme it is.

Anyway....back to the issue...what has kept us from relining the pool from the beginning is that we were told by the separate local pool company, that because of the Spring, the cost to re-line the pool will be about double of the average re-lining costs...around $7000!!! Ugh!! Now, the cost is extreme, but what we fear the most is, if the slippage (not necessarily related to the leak) was caused by the Spring, that this will inevitably reoccur.

Okie doke, I believe I've included everything but the kitchen sink, lol. Again, please forgive me if I've provided way too much info. Thank you so much in advance for your willingness to help and your suggestions.

cjane68

[waste]

Too much info - it's not possible! THANK YOU for your detailed post!!!!!

You've got a high, ground water issue (that ought have been addressed during the build)

You need to get a sump pump, or similar, to automatically turn on - when the water is too high to keep the 'spring' from rising too much and disturbing your floor and liner.

I think the pipe you mentioned is a temporary one and ~ might be usable, but it depends on how they installed the 'well point' ( & you thought you gave too much info)

If you just go with a new liner, you'll keep having the same problem, until you fully address the 'spring' issue.

I'll help, as well as I can... but I'm not an expert in this (however, some other folks here are )

[cjane68]

Ted,
Let me try and recall what I had posted....THANK YOU for humoring me and my overindulgence of info. I don't believe I've ever had someone in a forum accept it quite so well. lol

-Question: When you say sub-pump, would this be something we tie directly into the pipe where the spring is? I really have no experience with a sub-pump besides one being in a basement of childhood home.

Now, prepare to be horrified, shocked and flabbergasted. I have photos! You have been warned...it's scary!
**Note...the walls (resembling a vinyl version of the Grand Canyon) have basically been this way for years (was noticeable the first year we personally opened the pool, which was about a year after the install), although the vermiculite slippage seems to get worse each year.

Believe it or not, the leak has nothing to do with the walls. Once you see the photos, you will see why we are so stumped as to what to do at this point. As you stated (thank you for that info about how relining will not solve the problem until the spring issue is addressed. No one has ever said that to us.

[waste]

How I would solve your issue is to dig a hole 2' deeper than the bottom of your pool on the side that the spring runs, fill 18" with gravel and put a pipe up to ground level, the pipe should be large enough to drop an automatic sump pump into.

If you can control the water under the pool, you'll be all set to patch the floor and drop a new liner (I'll give advice on both those things, if you need it)

[cjane68]

Not sure why moderator would not allow me to post the images of the pool. Crazy.

[PoolDoc]

Connie;

I emailed you an explanation and a alternative several days ago, which you've chosen to ignore.

You had used a highly restricted non-standard Flickr option which pretty much guaranteed this thread would be unavailable to others once you were done with it. As I explained in the email, these threads serve about 20 'lurkers' for every poster, and I generally don't allow 'me-only' threads that are unavailable to others.

PoolDoc

[cjane68]

Sorry PoolDoc, this is the first opportunity I've had to get back online and check my email. I appreciate your explanation and understand your concerns. From a business aspect, running my own website for the last 7 years has certainly allowed me the experience of the work that goes into protecting and growing an online business and the sometimes unfortunate posts from a few disturbed folks. Which brings me to your post regarding my "no download" option on Flickr. This is completely a default option I have enabled. This was done to stop image theft regarding my portrait images that had become frequent.

I will happily open the pool images and I appreciate you bringing this to my attention, as I wouldn't have known had you not.

I appreciate the help that "waste"/"ted" has provided me over the past week. Unfortunately, because of the moderation needed, the post aren't made available until hours later. This of course forces one to seek alternative websites for information. Not sure about others, but when the issue is as critical as mine, the need for immediate suggestions is almost necessary. Again, I understand your hesitation, and if I were merely seeking advice on which chemicals to use, or which pool companies to avoid, then your forum is one that I would re-visit.

If you feel comfortable with my images now that they are unlocked, please feel free to allow them to be posted. I will not remove them and hopefully, they will also be of some help to others who may be experiencing the same issue regarding an underground spring. http://www.flickr.com/photos/1193450...th/5878004443/

Thanks,
Connie