Metal Free or Not

[Firecat]

My water tested low for PH at the pool store, the guy told me to add Metal Free before adding the soda ash because I have a heater and there will be copper in the water even though I told him I have a heat pump with a titanium heat exchanger(Aquacal H120). He then tested for copper and the dip strip showed fine, he was still convinced there would be copper in the water and the soda ash would not be able to work with it in there.

I am not sure if there is any copper in the heat pump that comes into contact with the water, only thing that might have copper is a spigot on my homemade solar heater to drain it for winter but that is probably brass.

Should I add the Metal Free before I start to add the soda ash to raise the PH?

-Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

The problem is not that the soda ash won't work if copper is present; the problem is that the soda ash will tend to change any metals present from a soluble (non-staining) to an insoluble (stains, colors, clouds) form.

If your pool's pH got really low, putting the Metal Free in is not necessarily a bad idea. It's essentially just a precaution, since really low pH tends to grab ANY metal it can find. Then, when you raise the pH, it drops it out all over your pool.

If you've got a vinyl liner pool with no exposed metals but stainless ladders and a titanium heat exchanger, my guess is you are good to go. Otherwise, if there is metal somewhere (mineral product, etc.) you might want to use the Metal Free and THEN run your pump 24/7 for the next 2 weeks, so that as the Metal Free breaks down, and the metals are released, they land on your filter rather than your pool walls.

BTW, I'd use a 1/2 dose of the Metal Free, and add more if there's any sign of discoloration.

Also, use 20 Mule Team borax rather than soda ash -- it's cheaper, less likely to cause problems with metals, and better for your pool. If your pH is way low, use 3 boxes per 10,000 gallons added SLOWLY to the skimmer with the skimmer basket in place and the pump running. Wait at least 2 hours and retest before adding more. Otherwise, 1 box every 10,000 gallons every 4 hours.

Finally, if you 'dump' a box in the pool's deep end, and watch for color change, if will give you some idea if metals may be present.

Ben

[waterbear]

I would not use Metal free since it is EDTA based. If you are going to use a metal seqeustrant use one that is HEDP based such as Jack's Magic Pink or Blue Stuff or Proteam Metal Magic.

[Firecat]

The problem is not that the soda ash won't work if copper is present; the problem is that the soda ash will tend to change any metals present from a soluble (non-staining) to an insoluble (stains, colors, clouds) form.

If your pool's pH got really low, putting the Metal Free in is not necessarily a bad idea. It's essentially just a precaution, since really low pH tends to grab ANY metal it can find. Then, when you raise the pH, it drops it out all over your pool.

If you've got a vinyl liner pool with no exposed metals but stainless ladders and a titanium heat exchanger, my guess is you are good to go. Otherwise, if there is metal somewhere (mineral product, etc.) you might want to use the Metal Free and THEN run your pump 24/7 for the next 2 weeks, so that as the Metal Free breaks down, and the metals are released, they land on your filter rather than your pool walls.

BTW, I'd use a 1/2 dose of the Metal Free, and add more if there's any sign of discoloration.

Also, use 20 Mule Team borax rather than soda ash -- it's cheaper, less likely to cause problems with metals, and better for your pool. If your pH is way low, use 3 boxes per 10,000 gallons added SLOWLY to the skimmer with the skimmer basket in place and the pump running. Wait at least 2 hours and retest before adding more. Otherwise, 1 box every 10,000 gallons every 4 hours.

Finally, if you 'dump' a box in the pool's deep end, and watch for color change, if will give you some idea if metals may be present.

Ben

Thanks, I have started that regimen yesterday. I need to get more Borax because Walmart only had two, so I added those today. I do have a liner pool.

I will report back with how it works out.

Thanks, again.

[Firecat]

I would not use Metal free since it is EDTA based. If you are going to use a metal seqeustrant use one that is HEDP based such as Jack's Magic Pink or Blue Stuff or Proteam Metal Magic.

I will look into that but it is too late as I added some yesterday before I saw this post. Thanks for the info though.

[Firecat]

Ok, I put 24 lbs of Borax in the pool over the past couple days and the PH is the same. I just went to the pool store to have them check it too and its 7.0. They now suggest getting the Alkalinity up first to stabilize the PH, then add more Soda Ash (Borax is what I am using) The Alkalinity is at 0, so they sold me Alkalinity Up and suggest adding 10 lbs now and probable 10 more after I get the PH up.

I just wasted 24 lbs of Borax it seems, I need to learn the protocol to getting my water adjusted and not rely on the sales people at the pool store.

I have a 20,000 gallon liner pool.

Thanks alot.

[waterbear]

You have not wasted the borax. Many people add borax to 50 ppm because of it's agaestatic and pH stabilizing properties. If your TA is 0 PPM you need to RETURN THE ALKALINITY INCREASER TO THE POOL STORE and but the same amount of baking soda and add that. Here is a hint Total alkalinity increaser is baking soda. Read the package, It will say either sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate, both are just other names for ordinary baking soda!

[Firecat]

So is there anything else I need to adjust before adding the Alkalinity Up or Baking Soda? Or is that the place to start?

[PoolDoc]

Probably, you need a test kit.

The chance that your alkalinity is "0" after 24 lbs of borax is small; the chance that your dealer's testing is seriously wrong is large. You already have accumulated quite a bit of evidence suggesting that your dealer does not test water reliably. If you keep trying to treat your pool based on test values that are quite likely bogus, you'll end up doing a lot to help your dealer's bottom line, but little to help your pool.

Add more borax, till your pH is 7.2 on a cheap drops based testkit, but order a Taylor K2006 or equivalent. Lamotte's kit is fine, but much more expensive. Just be sure to get an FAS-DPD complete kit -- there's an Amazon link in my signature. It's showing "US General" as the seller right now. That's probably OK, but "Amato Ind" does ship the correct kit. Most likely, they'll be back on Amazon by Monday or Tuesday.

[Firecat]

I had a test kit from before and was using it but it was old so I bought a new one yesterday, it says Leslies, the pool store name, but inside is says it is a Taylor, it is just for chlorine and ph though. Maybe I should try a different store to test for the other levels or maybe I should buy a more involved test kit. I am unemployed right now so every dollar saved is in my best interest.

Should I add baking soda or just keep with the Borax for now? I will try to return the Alkalinity Up but I just returned the PH increaser and he said he would do it just the one time because of OSHA regs. I will tell him they have not been giving me good advice from the start and I wish to take my business elsewhere.

The TA test is the little electric meter that has a small cup on it?

Thanks.