Chlorine Locked?

[reesie]

I tested again when I got off work:
fcl 2.5
tcl 25
ccl 22.5
alk 160
ph 7.6
cya 50
I added 4 gallons bleach at 8:30 pm. Will test again in 1 hour.
I didn't quite understand Pooldoc's instructions. I'm new to all this chlorine stuff. Do I need to go get another different kind of test kit for #1?
Could you explain #2 more? Is that part of the OTO test kit colors?
I understand 3. My water is crystal clear, also. No algae. My 9 year old is also upset she can't swim. She was swimming when we first opened it, before we started adding all the large amounts of bleach.
I also understand 4 & 5.
I hope it deosn't come to #5. I live in a small town with a municipal water system and they absolutely forbid filling swimming pools.
Thank you all for your help.

[CarlD]

The simplest kind of drop testing is the kit that has a plastic cell marked for chlorine/bromine on the left with a yellow background and pH on the right, with a red background. It's sold in pool stores and K-Mart, WalMart and other places. It can run $5-$15 depending on the brand and features. WalMart used to have a GREAT one by HTH that also did total alk, hardness, and CYA testing, that ran about $12-$15. But the typical inexpensive kit is fine as long as it says OTO or OTO/pH
The chlorine test (forget about the bromine--that's for bromine pools) is called OTO. You fill to the line, add 4 or 5 drops (depending the brand) and compare the color of the water to the yellow background to read the total chlorine level.
pH on the other side is just the same.

What Ben is saying is that he doesn't trust the reading you are getting (not that it's your fault or you are doing anything wrong) but that he wants you to test the water with the OTO test instead. The dark yellow color he's talking about is much darker than the range of the background on the test tube (called a test CELL). That water color should be dark yellow. After yellow, as the chlorine gets more concentrated, it goes orange then brown.
It's not very precise, but it's very simple and very rigorous, in other words it pretty much always works.

So...if the water is NOT dark yellow in the OTO cell, add bleach to the pool until it comes out that way. If it IS dark yellow (as I said, much yellower than the cell's background) it's already where Ben wants it. Then just let time pass and don't add any bleach, letting the color go to medium yellow (this all may take a day or two).

What I don't know is how much Polyquat Ben wants you to use. Usually 1-2 ounces is enough--if your pool is clear. But what is clear is to do it if the pool sides feel slippery.

I THINK, but don't know, that if the water "behaves" it will be safe to swim.

I hope this helps clear up Ben's instructions.

Carl

[PoolDoc]

Hi Reesie;

Just heard from Chem_Geek. He's seen some similar situations on other forums he frequents -- and as best he can tell, the situation is just what I guessed.

You've used Baquacil for years, and have years of "Baqua-poop" or residue from Baquacil in your pool. This stuff is HARDER to break down then Baquacil itself. Apparently, it can take up to 6 weeks to complete the conversion. Richard (Chem_Geek) thinks using sodium percarbonate doses might help, but this is a bit of a guess, too.

Here are links, if you want to try that:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium...ate_30lbs.html
http://www.soapgoods.com/Sodium-Perc...FB-p-1001.html

The bad news is, I don't think it's safe to swim while your CC levels are so how. If you read aciam's thread, you'll see it hurt her hands to just stick them in the water.

The really bad news is, I can't tell you much of anything definite:
+ Nobody who knows just what "Baqua-poop" (residue from Baquacil use) is is talking or publishing. ICI Americas, who patented the product, probably knows. But they haven't made that info available.
+ So . . . nobody knows what's forming when chlorine breaks Baqua-poop down. Observation (test, smell) indicates that it's some sort of noxious chloramine.
+ And, since nobody knows what it is, nobody is sure how to go about breaking it down faster.
+ Worse, this is such an uncommon event, that nobody has good guidelines to offer you.

Your options:
#1 - Keep chlorinating. It will eventually break down and go away, but it may take weeks more.
#2 - Buy sodium percarbonate and add that, too. (Let us help you with the doses if you do this)
#3 - Add copper sulfate. Copper sulfate (a pool algaecide) breaks down Baquacil; it may break down Baqua-Poop. It probably won't make anything worse. You may be able to get it at Lowes as "Root destroyer" in the plumbing section; you can buy it from the chemistry store link. Again, let me help you with doses if you do this.
#4 - Drain and refill.

I wish I had better news for you.

Ben

[CarlD]

Reesie,

I am so sorry. Usually the Bacq conversion works nicely however this is one of two we're seeing that hasn't, and another pool forum, TFP saw the same thing earlier in the spring. We haven't seen this before.

You may want to consider going the Sodium PerCarbonate root, but only Ben and Chem_Geek can guide you on that.

Carl.

[waterbear]

The sodium percarbonate will oxidize the biguanide and goo in your pool. However, it will also destroy any chlorine and chloramines present since it creates hydrogen peroxide when dissolved. Therefore, you might need to dose two or three times with the percarbonate for it to be effective if you have high levels of combined chlorine presently. The first applicaton with get used up destroying the chlorine compounds and subsequent applications can then attack the biguanide and residue in the pool.
Normal dosing is 1 lb per 1000 gallon water and since it will cause the pH to rise the addition of 3/4 lb of dry acid for every 1 lb of percarbonate added will keep the pH in line. So for a 10k gallon pool you would need 10 lbs of percarbonate and about 7 lbs of dry acid for each dose. Turn off the pump and broadcast the perscarbonate on the water surface then immediately broadcast the dry acid. The stuff may 'fizz' and cause gunk to float to the surface.
Skim out as much of this as possible then turn on the pump and filter 24/7 for 48 hours. You should have no or little chlorine in the pool at this point and should clean the filter and repeat the process again.
If the water is not clear after another 48 hours of filtration repeat again.

Some people do not add the dry acid initially and let the percarbonate work at the higher pH then lower the pH after the conversion I do not personally know which method is more effective but do know that it does work either way.


At this point what little biguanide remains in the water and filter should be easily oxidized by chlorine if any is left so add chlorine and see how much CC is present or if the water turns colors when you add the chlorine. Once conversion is complete change out your filer medium, be it sand, cartridge, or DE. NO simple backwash here. Break down the filer and clean and soak everything. Repalce the sand, carts or DE completely.

Do not swim in the pool until conversion is compete. The water can be irritating to say the least!

[CarlD]

Thanks, Evan!

This has had us all stumped!

Carl

(PS: Your sig almost sounds like a Jethro Tull line... )

[waterbear]

Thanks, Evan!


(PS: Your sig almost sounds like a Jethro Tull line... )

Saw them in the 70s and was/am an avid fan of Ian Andeson! The lyric is "I may make you feel but I can't make you think" from Thick as a Brick. However, my signature is actually a play on the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

[reesie]

I got the OTO kit Saturday morning. Pooldoc was right. The results did not match the results from the Taylor kit. According to the OTO kit, I had 5 ppm fcl. I added bleach till dark yellow ( much darker than the cell in the test kit) & then let it drop. I was trying for medium yellow but it dropped to 1.5 ppm. I used the pool calculator and the reference amount Watermom gave me above and put 1 gallon of bleach in tonight to bring the fcl back up to around 5.
ph is 7.4
cya is 50
alk is still 160
I haven't checked tcl or ccl
What should I do now?
Does it sound like we may be reaching the end?
Will we be able to use the 3 inch tablets this year? We had already bought a big bucket of them (40 lbs.) I wish I had found this forum before I bought them.
Thanks, everyone!

[reesie]

Hi, I just realized there are posts that I hadn't seen. I was really busy this weekend between the pool and taking my 9 yr. old to King's Dominion (Class Trip) and getting ready for 3rd grade Graduation. (I didn't know they had Graduation from 3rd Grade!)
Somehow I missed the 2nd page of posts.
Wow!
I thought I was just about done!
I really appreciate all the time and trouble everyone has gone to to help with this problem.

[reesie]

I tested my pool again tonight with both the Taylor kit and the OTO kit. I actually got the same results with both kits.
fcl 1
tcl 3
ccl 2
ph 7.4
these were just from the Taylor
alk 140
cya 50
Is it possible we have almost conquered this? We actually started this last year and gave up and started again the first week in May, 2011.
With the readings the way they are right now, do I add more bleach ( We added 1 gallon last night) or should I go with non chlorine shock to try to get rid of the rest of the combined chlorine?
Or none of the above?