Chlorine Locked?

[reesie]

Okay, I received the Taylor kit 2 days ago. I tested last night at 9:00pm
fcl 6
tcl 25
ccl 19
alk 160
ch 250
ph 7.8
cya 50
I tested again this morning at 6:00 am:
fcl 6
tcl 19
ccl 19
I didn't lose any from sundown to sunup but I lost a lot from 5:00 pm til 9:00 pm. I put 4 gallons bleach in at 5:00 pm.
Now what do I need to do to lower the fcl & tcl and get rid of the ccl? Do I need to lower the ph to below 7.6? Is that the next step? Would I go back to putting a non chlorine shock in?

[CarlD]

For the moment, don't worry about pH. Yeah, it's high, but that may be due to the TC being so high and it's falsely elevating the reading.

Do not, not, NOT add anything but bleach/Liquid Chlorine at this point unless Ben, and ONLY Ben, AKA PoolDoc says to do so!


In my opinion, you need to raise your FC to 15, minimum, and keep it there. Given that your CYA is 50, at the top end of the 30-50 scale, you could even take FC to 20ppm safely.

You still have stuff you have to get rid of in your water even if the Bacquagoop reading is zero. It's still all over your system, and you have to get rid of it.
That is why, I think, you have such high CC levels. You should see, after a few days, the CC reading come down. When it's zero and stays there, you are finally done with your conversion.

At that time, you'll have to clean out your filter. If it's a sand filter you'll need to replace the sand, absolutely. If it's DE, you'll have to clean the grids, maybe even soak them in Muriatic Acid (I'm not the DE or cartridge whiz). If it's a cart, I don't know if you can clean the element or have to replace it, but if you can I expect at a minimum you'll have to soak it for a day or two in electric dishwasher detergent. Any cart users out there that have done the Baq to Chlorine conversion?

Carl

[PoolDoc]

These two threads:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...hlorine-Locked
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...il-to-chlorine

seem to be both products of an issue I don't remember dealing with before: pools with a LONG history of Baquacil use, before conversion.

I talked with "Aciam" at length last night, and agreed upon the following:

#1 - Test with OTO ; ignore FC / CC differientiation
#2 - Dose to dark yellow (~10ppm); allow it to drop to medium yellow (~2 ppm)
#3 - Continue filtering 24/7
(Aciam's water is clear, but some sort of surface debris is forming continuously and being collected on her skimmer sox)
#4 - Dose with polyquat that the FIRST signs of algae (slippery sides on Aciam's vinyl AG pool)
#5 - If no resolution after a few days, consider drain and refill (AG pools ONLY!)

My **guess** is that there's a huge accumulation of Baqua-goo from the years of Baquacil use, and that -- whatever else Baqua-goo is, chemically speaking -- it is very resistant to chlorine oxidation. The high CC levels are a result of slow (but sure) oxidation by chlorine.

What's weird is that her FAS-DPD readings did NOT match her OTO test results at all. I trust OTO more than DPD, so I made the recommendation above. However, I had to tell her I really have no idea how cleanup will take. I've emailed Chem_Geek to see if he's collected any info on this.

Ben

PS: It sounds like "reesie" is in the same situation. Ben

[reesie]

I tested again when I got off work:
fcl 2.5
tcl 25
ccl 22.5
alk 160
ph 7.6
cya 50
I added 4 gallons bleach at 8:30 pm. Will test again in 1 hour.
I didn't quite understand Pooldoc's instructions. I'm new to all this chlorine stuff. Do I need to go get another different kind of test kit for #1?
Could you explain #2 more? Is that part of the OTO test kit colors?
I understand 3. My water is crystal clear, also. No algae. My 9 year old is also upset she can't swim. She was swimming when we first opened it, before we started adding all the large amounts of bleach.
I also understand 4 & 5.
I hope it deosn't come to #5. I live in a small town with a municipal water system and they absolutely forbid filling swimming pools.
Thank you all for your help.

[CarlD]

The simplest kind of drop testing is the kit that has a plastic cell marked for chlorine/bromine on the left with a yellow background and pH on the right, with a red background. It's sold in pool stores and K-Mart, WalMart and other places. It can run $5-$15 depending on the brand and features. WalMart used to have a GREAT one by HTH that also did total alk, hardness, and CYA testing, that ran about $12-$15. But the typical inexpensive kit is fine as long as it says OTO or OTO/pH
The chlorine test (forget about the bromine--that's for bromine pools) is called OTO. You fill to the line, add 4 or 5 drops (depending the brand) and compare the color of the water to the yellow background to read the total chlorine level.
pH on the other side is just the same.

What Ben is saying is that he doesn't trust the reading you are getting (not that it's your fault or you are doing anything wrong) but that he wants you to test the water with the OTO test instead. The dark yellow color he's talking about is much darker than the range of the background on the test tube (called a test CELL). That water color should be dark yellow. After yellow, as the chlorine gets more concentrated, it goes orange then brown.
It's not very precise, but it's very simple and very rigorous, in other words it pretty much always works.

So...if the water is NOT dark yellow in the OTO cell, add bleach to the pool until it comes out that way. If it IS dark yellow (as I said, much yellower than the cell's background) it's already where Ben wants it. Then just let time pass and don't add any bleach, letting the color go to medium yellow (this all may take a day or two).

What I don't know is how much Polyquat Ben wants you to use. Usually 1-2 ounces is enough--if your pool is clear. But what is clear is to do it if the pool sides feel slippery.

I THINK, but don't know, that if the water "behaves" it will be safe to swim.

I hope this helps clear up Ben's instructions.

Carl

[PoolDoc]

Hi Reesie;

Just heard from Chem_Geek. He's seen some similar situations on other forums he frequents -- and as best he can tell, the situation is just what I guessed.

You've used Baquacil for years, and have years of "Baqua-poop" or residue from Baquacil in your pool. This stuff is HARDER to break down then Baquacil itself. Apparently, it can take up to 6 weeks to complete the conversion. Richard (Chem_Geek) thinks using sodium percarbonate doses might help, but this is a bit of a guess, too.

Here are links, if you want to try that:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium...ate_30lbs.html
http://www.soapgoods.com/Sodium-Perc...FB-p-1001.html

The bad news is, I don't think it's safe to swim while your CC levels are so how. If you read aciam's thread, you'll see it hurt her hands to just stick them in the water.

The really bad news is, I can't tell you much of anything definite:
+ Nobody who knows just what "Baqua-poop" (residue from Baquacil use) is is talking or publishing. ICI Americas, who patented the product, probably knows. But they haven't made that info available.
+ So . . . nobody knows what's forming when chlorine breaks Baqua-poop down. Observation (test, smell) indicates that it's some sort of noxious chloramine.
+ And, since nobody knows what it is, nobody is sure how to go about breaking it down faster.
+ Worse, this is such an uncommon event, that nobody has good guidelines to offer you.

Your options:
#1 - Keep chlorinating. It will eventually break down and go away, but it may take weeks more.
#2 - Buy sodium percarbonate and add that, too. (Let us help you with the doses if you do this)
#3 - Add copper sulfate. Copper sulfate (a pool algaecide) breaks down Baquacil; it may break down Baqua-Poop. It probably won't make anything worse. You may be able to get it at Lowes as "Root destroyer" in the plumbing section; you can buy it from the chemistry store link. Again, let me help you with doses if you do this.
#4 - Drain and refill.

I wish I had better news for you.

Ben

[CarlD]

Reesie,

I am so sorry. Usually the Bacq conversion works nicely however this is one of two we're seeing that hasn't, and another pool forum, TFP saw the same thing earlier in the spring. We haven't seen this before.

You may want to consider going the Sodium PerCarbonate root, but only Ben and Chem_Geek can guide you on that.

Carl.

[reesie]

I got the OTO kit Saturday morning. Pooldoc was right. The results did not match the results from the Taylor kit. According to the OTO kit, I had 5 ppm fcl. I added bleach till dark yellow ( much darker than the cell in the test kit) & then let it drop. I was trying for medium yellow but it dropped to 1.5 ppm. I used the pool calculator and the reference amount Watermom gave me above and put 1 gallon of bleach in tonight to bring the fcl back up to around 5.
ph is 7.4
cya is 50
alk is still 160
I haven't checked tcl or ccl
What should I do now?
Does it sound like we may be reaching the end?
Will we be able to use the 3 inch tablets this year? We had already bought a big bucket of them (40 lbs.) I wish I had found this forum before I bought them.
Thanks, everyone!

[reesie]

Hi, I just realized there are posts that I hadn't seen. I was really busy this weekend between the pool and taking my 9 yr. old to King's Dominion (Class Trip) and getting ready for 3rd grade Graduation. (I didn't know they had Graduation from 3rd Grade!)
Somehow I missed the 2nd page of posts.
Wow!
I thought I was just about done!
I really appreciate all the time and trouble everyone has gone to to help with this problem.