Pool construction woes #1

[cpotter638]

We are nearing the end of pool construction. Plastered pool 2 weeks ago. Pool builder has been relatively unavailable since plastering. And he is now on vacation. I'm having a multitude of issues. 1st problem:

Pool builder installed equipment, including pool pump (Intelliflo 4x160) & sand filter ( Pentair TA 60). We have been continually brushing the pool to remove dust; however, little to no dust is removed. In looking at installation it plumbing demonstrates:

Main drain & skimmers to Intelliflo input. Intelliflo output goes into a T. One portion of T goes through chlorine generator (IC-20) and then into pool returns (bypassing filter). Other portion of T goes through the filter. Filter output T's into pool returns, just prior to the chlorine generator. This makes no sense to me. It seems to me that only a portion of the water is being filtered in this scenario. Is there any scenario where such a plumbing setup would be desired? It would seem to me that the Intelliflo's output should go directly into the filter with no T. I asked the pool builder via phone. He mentioned something about the TA 60 not being able to handle the full flow from the pump when pump is in highest speed. TA 60 is showing a pressure of around 4 PSI (seems low to me). After many days of trying to brush plaster dust into the main drains, there is still a ton of plaster dust in pool. Additionally, filter PSI remains unchanged. I think the majority of plaster dust pulled by the main drains is bypassing the filter due to plumbing and being redeposited into the pool. Can anyone shed some light as to how the TA 60 & Intelliflo should be plumbed together?

If need be, I can diagram the current pool plumbing and attach. Thanks in advance for the help.
Chad

[PoolDoc]

Lemme see if I've got this right.

Your builder matched a Pentair VS-3050 -- a 100+ GPM -- pump with a TA60 -- 45 GPM -- filter, and then tried to compensate with an unrestricted bypass around the filter?

If I'm understanding the facts correctly, then only one conclusion is possible: with respect to hydraulic design, your builder is -- how can I say this delicately? -- an idiot. I hope he's smarter in other areas, or you will be having a multitude of issues.

How big is your pool? The selection of an IC20 suggests that it's small.

Ben

[cpotter638]

Ben - thanks for the reply. I tried to simplify our build somewhat for the initial post. But doing so may give inaccurate conclusions. I'm concerned about the builder's skills, but I'll reserve judgment until I furnish you all the details.

Our project is relatively complex. Some details:
36' x 18'
Depth from 3' to 4'6
Tanning ledge
3 18" sheer descents
1 36" sheer descents
Raised spa

Tonight, I went to the construction site and extensively diagramed both the pool and spa hydraulics. I also have a sketch of the pool. I would like to attach them to my post; however, I do not have such privileges yet.

After I'm able to post the diagrams, I can furnish an extensive list of all my questions.

Thanks for the help.

[PoolDoc]

email them, and photos, to me poolforum AT gmail DOT com

Ben

[cpotter638]

I will email you plumbing diagrams separately.

Pool:
1. Given details of our situation, is the "filter bypass" appropriate?

2. I would think that there needs to be a valve where I've marked in red. My only issue with this - what if this filter bypass is closed (to clean the pool as much as possible) and my wife or kid accidently turn on the water features? What will be the repercussions?

3. Is the lack of a valve where I've marked in red responsible for not being able to filter the plaster dust?

4. We have 3 18" Sheer descents and 1 36" sheer descent. Functionality currently is poor.
a. Pool builder ground down the descents with a grinder. They are now very rough. I've told the builder that he needs to make them smooth. Is this a large problem now?
b. I have always anticipated that the 3 18" and 1 36" would work together. Pool builder is only now telling me that the 18" units and 36" units may have to work independently. When all are turned on, flow rate is less than optimal. I didn't know if this was due to builder's potential plumbing mistakes, secondary to not enough power from the Intelliflo / Jandy actuator, or secondary to plaster dust running through the descents. In order to work all 4 together, I'm guessing they would need at least 90 gal / min in total. I looked at the Intelliflo performance curve to get an idea of whether or not this would technically be feasible; however, I don't have any clue how to guestimate the "Total Head" of our system. I'd like all 4 to work at the same time and I'm open to suggestions.
c. Even with "good flow" the descents do not function uniformly at this time. The water blade "splits" as it leaves the unit. I'm assuming this is due to the fact that they ground the PVC and/or debris in the unit. I hope this is correctable?

5. From what I've read, I don't like how the Jandy actuator is positioned relative to the filter. From my view, when the water feature is in use, the filter is bypassed. All water running through the water feature is not filtered. Will this not lead to clogging / debris in the sheer descents? Jandy descent manual specifically states that water should be filtered before reaching the descents.

Spa:
1. Given details of our situation, is the "filter bypass" appropriate?

2. Same question re: accidently engaging spa jets when "filter bypass valve" (marked in red) is closed. What gets damaged?

3. Heater is currently "in the loop". However, heater is not plugged in as heater has not been vented to exterior yet (all equipment is in a storage room).

4. Today, I closed the filter bypass valve. Turned on the pump at low speed. Water at heater makes a "gurgling sound" and there is NO flow through the spa returns. Is there an internal valve within the heater that needs to be opened? Or something else potentially restricting flow through the heater? After I realized there was no flow through the spa jets, I immediately turned off the pump and opened the bypass valve. I didn't want to cause any damage to the pump (or something else). Hopefully I did not. I suppose I can wait for the pool builder to return. However, he is currently on vacation and won't return for a week. In the meantime, I can't effectively remove the plaster dust.

Sorry for the length of this post. Just wanted to detail our system and lay out my current questions. Thanks. Chad

[PoolDoc]

Chad,

I'm going to alert Waste and Waterbear about your post, and see if they want to look at it. (I've seen your diagrams, but I need a higher contrast version of those to post. I tried photo-editing them, but the JPG artifacts show up when I do. Maybe, you could redraw or trace over them with a black pen or Sharpie? And, send higher resolution versions, that could be edited?

But . . . honestly, you have a mess. Your builder doesn't know what he's doing. To set up the bypass with IC20 is wrong in at least two major ways. First, the IC20 should be receiving FILTERED water -- I asked Pentair about this to be sure. Second, that's an uncontrolled, unbalanced bypass, and almost all your flow is going through the IC20, which is why you can' t filter. And, that is a SIMPLE problem; to goof that up is a bonehead mistake.

Trying to make sure all of your flows are properly balance is substantially harder.

But, the problem for me is, I don't know how to do this sort of piping, myself. I've done some pretty complex commercial piping, but it's a different set of problems. And, I've never done this sort of thing. Given the way I work, I would estimate I'd end up putting in 8 - 12 hours of finding hydraulic data on your components, calling manufacturers and then finally doing calculations before I could tell you how to fix your mess. I don't have that kind of time right now, certainly not for a 'freebie'. I can guess what the solution, or at least a solution, would look like. And my batting average on those kinds of guesses has been good over the years. But before I'd take your money and guarantee that your pool would work as planned, I'd have to spend the design time. Without it, I don't have the experience to be sure.

I'm not sure what to tell you. But if it were me, I'd call a halt to construction till I had a good design and plan I was confident in. If there's someone local who is knowledgeable, you probably need to get them involved.

Over the years, I've seen more pools with screwed up hydraulics than not. And that's with simple pools. The problem is, hydraulic mistakes end up "in concrete" . . . and then you have to live with them for the next 30 years. Or, you have to bring in the jackhammers.

So there it is.

I'll post the drawings you sent, and email Waterbear and Waste.

When you update the drawings, include pipe sizes. If there are size transitions in Tees, photo those tees, and supply size info. Also it's not clear to me what bits are build and what bits are to-be-built. But, when you photo, take pics of all the hydraulic elements.

Ben

[PoolDoc]

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[waterbear]

Salt cell goes AFTER filter. Period! I agree with Ben that the builder is clueless! Wouldn't be the first time! My own pool builder had to replumb my pool during contruction once I saw the incorrect install of my SWCG. I even had to get Goldline tech support on the phone to talk to him!)

[cpotter638]

Ben (and now Waterbear)

Thanks for all the help. Sorry I have not responded sooner. I took your advice. I got the opinion of another local pool company. They certainly agree that there are some problems. They did not have time to address all issues today. They will come back out next week to give me formal recommendations. Thanks again for the help. I will keep you posted. I have a few other questions that are hopefully easier to answer. I will probably place these questions in new posts (as they are different topics).