Cloudy water plan of action

[PoolDoc]

Hi Wsomm . . .

The difficulty is to use chlorine without creating terrible stains -- chlorine oxidizes copper from its current condition to one that is much less soluble.

Anything I tell you would be an experiment, but you can try this, if you like:
1. Start filtering 24/7
2. Lower your pH to 6.9 - 7.0 using acid (muriatic acid, preferably)
3. Aerate the pool using anything you can that will make bubbles -- if you can adjust an eyeball so it 'ruffles' the water, that will help.
4. MAINTAIN the lowered pH -- it may rise rapidly at first, depending on how well you aerate.
5. Add *small* doses of chlorine in the evening -- but ONLY after testing the pH and verifying that it is low. I'm not sure how many gallons your pool has, but you'll want to keep the doses below 0.5 ppm of chlorine. I would start with 1 cup of bleach per 10,000 gallons added DIRECTLY to the skimmer with the pump running. This will probably cause staining INSIDE the filter, but I assume that won't be a problem. If you pre-mix the bleach with a couple of gallons of water, and pour it slowly into the skimmer, that will reduce any copper/chlorine loss.
6. Get a testkit that tests for TOTAL chlorine -- a cheap OTO / phenol red kit is fine. Do NOT add more chlorine till the kit shows none is present.
7. Keep aerating and lowering the pH till it stabilizes. At that point, most of your carbonate alkalinity will be gone.
8. At that point, you can raise your pH to 7.4 or so, with borax (20 Mule team) using 2 cup doses and retesting.

Several things to note:
a) The chlorine will by destroyed by several hours of full sun, so it can only be effective added at night.
b) Your levels of copper plus ANY chlorine will turn blonde or gray hair green as grass. Do not let anyone with light hair go into the pool while there are BOTH copper and chlorine present.
c) You cannot use citric acid and chlorine together -- they will just destroy each other.
d) You may have a LARGE accumulation of oxidizable goo in the pool. Normally, I'd just have folks clean it up quickly with large doses of chlorine, but you CAN NOT DO THAT. A large dose of chlorine will result in horrendous stains. So, it's quite likely you'll need many small doses.
e) Once your pool is clear, you may want to go to a regular dosing program with chlorine. Key elements of this are small doses, low-ish pH (7.0 - 7.4), low carbonate alkalinity.

You do NOT need much calcium in your pool -- do NOT add more. You can gradually replace your carbonate alkalinity with borates. This will tend to happen over time, if you lower your pH with acid and then raise it (as needed) with borax.

A final caution: copper levels like you have will kill algae, and inhibit bacterial growth. But there will be little or no effect on viruses and no rapid effect on bacteria. This means your pool water probably won't GROW anything hazardous, but it also won't do anything to protect you from bacteria or viruses shed by another swimmer in the previous 24 hours. As a practical matter, if someone with a cold or diarrhea swims -- even if they shower first -- you'll probably get a cold or diarrhea if you swim, prior to a chlorine treatment.

Best wishes,

Ben

[wsommariva]

Ben, this info is greatly appreciated. Thank you. I will start this today.

I have a 10,000 gal fiberglass. You mention bleach - the same stuff that we put in the clothes washer?

[PoolDoc]

plain unscented 6% (check the label -- some low % is being sold) bleach.

borax is plain 20 Mule Team borax from the same section of the store -- do NOT confuse it with "Boraxo", a borax / detergent mix.

-ben

[wsommariva]

Ben,

Carbonate alkalinity, is that total alkinality? I keep it at 100 to 150 ppm. Good range for me?

CH - I am at 255. This too high? If so how can I decrease?

Borates - I use baking soda, same thing?

Thanks

[wsommariva]

Sorry to ask so much but I don't want to make a dramatic mistake. My water is a bit green, I assume algae is starting. Can I increase bleach amounts once PH hits 7.0?

[waste]

Ben,

Carbonate alkalinity, is that total alkinality? I keep it at 100 to 150 ppm. Good range for me?

CH - I am at 255. This too high? If so how can I decrease?

Borates - I use baking soda, same thing?

Thanks

Sorry I'm late to this party! (thanks for inviting me Ben, I am TRULY honored! but I check my E-mail maybe once a week)

With no CYA, your total alkalinity is the carbonate alkalinity. With all the copper in your water, I believe Ben is suggesting to lower it (see his post above).

Borates are a different way to raise the pH (pH up powder [a.k.a sodium carbonate] is so closely related to baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) that they act ~ the same and will raise not only the pH but also the carbonate alkalinity). Borates raise the pH without messing (too much) with the alkalinity.

To lower the C.H. you have to drain water out of the pool and replace it with water that is lower in C.H (a hard trick in the S.W. but, if you're in the S.W. you may be able to find a company that can filter the calcium out by reverse osmosis)

I wish you well with your pool and please know you can call on me anytime to help you!

[wsommariva]

Ted thanks for the clarification. I think I'm on the road to understanding what I need to do. I just learned that my low TDS might prevent proper oxidation. So I'll increase that a bit and see what happens.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped.

[PoolDoc]

"I just learned that my low TDS might prevent proper oxidation."

Arghh!! Did you learn this from the same people selling the Clfree?

No, no, no. TDS is usually irrelevant. Do not pay any attention to it; do not worry about it; do not try to adjust it! Usually, pool stores try to tell you your TDS is too HIGH, and that you must do this or that or life as you know it will end. I've not heard of someone trying to tell you it's too low, before.
(And stop trusting whatever source of information giving you this information.)

Best wishes,

Ben

[wsommariva]

Something to do with water conductivity.

In any case I strive to get this pool to where I want it to be - perfect. Maybe someday.

Thanks everyone once again for your underrstanding and help.

[waterbear]

Something to do with water conductivity.

You are right, low TDS mean low conductivity and that means that CHLORINE CANNOT BE GENERATED IN THE CELL JUST LIKE WITH A SWCG! You unit is producing a small amount of chlorine as an oxidizer in the cell along with the copper BECAUSE OF RESIDUAL SALT IN YOUR WATER (TDS). It is not unlike the Ecosmarte system and it is SNAKE OIL! We have been through all this on a different forum already.

Your water is cloudy because something is growing in it unless your DE filter grids are damaged. On another forum you stated that your pool became cloudy after running the filter for a day but it was crystal clear before you turned the filter on. I told you to inspect the grids but you insisted that the grids were fine! In that case something is growing in the water to cloud it.
You needed the metal stain remover and sequestrant you used because you are putting metal into your pool. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out! Fiblerglass pools are notorious for staining (it's their main drawback) so metal ionizers are NOT a good idea. There is some empirical evidence that keeping the calcium hardness up in a fiberglass pool can slow or prevent staining from metals and cobalt spotting but the jury is still out. It can't hurt, IMHO.

Also, we have been through most of this on the OTHER forum that you post in quite a bit (where I am a Moderator) so I am not sure why you thought you would get different answers here. You have gotten the truth in both places. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your decision.


Sorry if I seem a bi short but this is really a rehash for me. Perhaps you will start to believe now that you are hearing it from other sources as well and stop believing all the marketing hype on the ClFree website.