Newbie question - would we be better off to drain and start over?

[PoolDoc]

Do NOT get "pool-stored"! Chlorine lock is a pool biz marketing myth (though some pool guys actually believe it).

Buy a cheap OTO (turns yellow) drops kit. If your chlorine is high, it will turn ORANGE (ok) or maybe brown (not so ok). Order the DPD-FAS.

Carl, RH-mom => you can use DE to TEST any filter: if you add a small amount of DE (coffee can) to your skimmer (pump ON) and shortly after see cloudiness from your pool return . . . your filter has problems REGARDLESS of what type it is.

RH-mom => for your pool (~30,000 gallons) ONE WHOLE BOX of borax is a small amount. Add slowly to the skimmer, but don't add just a cup.

Next steps:
1. Get the OTO kit so you can get some idea whether your chlorine is high or low.
2. If it's low, keep dosing in the PM, till you can hold high levels overnight.
3. If it's high, and stays high overnight, just maintain "orange". (If it's "brown", add 2 quarts of Baquacil or Softswim shock -- hydrogen peroxide, 31% => GLOVES & GLASSES without fail!)
3. Use a SMALL amount of DE to TEST your filter. (If you have to get a large bag, you can use it later to 'help' your filter with the cloudiness.
4. Get the FAS-DPD kit from the Amazon link -- but get an OTO kit locally ASAP.

Ben

[RockheadedMama]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I've thought I HAVE been following your advice. (Please refer to my previous reply in which I outlined exactly what we have put in the pool since Sunday night.) Perhaps I am not understanding something. Is there something ELSE I am supposed to do? The Taylor kits are not available here in San Antonio. I tried to order through Amazon, but the reviewers stated that the kit is actually a 2005 kit, so I played it safe and ordered straight from Taylor. However, I did not drain the pool any, as you suggested Watermom. Perhaps that is the advice you feel I should follow that I did not do? If not, what? I did order the Taylor 2006 test kit, but it will be almost a week until it arrives as it is coming from Maryland to south Texas. I did say the pool guy suggested the Fresh and Clear to "eat up" the large amount of solids. I did NOT say that I purchased any or that I have used any. Where do you get that I am trying "both" methods? Please explain specifically what it is you think I need to "decide". Or, are you just upset that I went to the pool store to get my water tested while I am waiting for the Taylor 2006 to arrive?

[RockheadedMama]

I should have said we are using the bio-degradable substitute for DE - Fiber Clear - we sprinkle it in until the pressure goes up 1# and then we stop putting it in. It has helped a little. None comes out of the outlet valve. (Although, when my DH hooked up to vacuum this evening, a small amount started shooting out of the outlet valve next to the skimmer - we hadn't put any in since this morning when we changed out the filter - and - my DH checked the filter and it was full, so, we changed it out.) I was unsure as to whether to continue using it, so I didn't add any tonight, but certainly can if I should.

I'll go and try to find the OTO kit tomorrow (DH said Walmart told him there didn't have any OTO test kits - might just have been a kid that didn't know what he was talking about) and start testing that way. The Taylor 2006 is ordered; but it will be a while until it gets here.

I'll put in another box of Borax then tonight as well. I have a 4#12 oz box I think. (I didn't know how much to put in before I located the thread - that's why I only used 1/2 cup. Since then, I've added boxes.)

The pool guy said my TDS was way too high. I know that Watermom said it was too and she suggested I drain 1/2 the pool. I'm just wondering if that is why my pool is still cloudy. I would prefer to "fix" it though rather than drain it.

Today I did have to brush orange brown patches off the sides a bit. They came off quite easily with the brush. Maybe, the cloudiness will go away when the chlorine is right?

Also, my pH is 7.7 - is that too low? Should I add 2 boxes of Borax every time I put in the 10 gallons of Clorox? (I did try to find the liquid chlorine, but, I can't find anyone who sells it here in SA.)

[PoolDoc]

Hi RH-Mom;

I took out some stuff that maybe wasn't steering this in the right direction.

Anyhow, the reason for the DE was not to *help* your filter, but to *test* it, and see if it works. Fiber Clear might *help*, but I don't think it will *test* your filter the same way. My concern is that if your filter is not working, everything else may not be of much value. You can't replace effective filtration with anything except . . . effective filtration. Please remember, if you go back to the pool store that effective filtration does NOT come in a quart bottle, whether it says clarifier or enzyme or flocculant or "Dr Peter Pools Miraculous Swimming Pool Treatment Elixir". (Of course, if it was a really old-time elixir 'for medicinal use only' it might make you FEEL much better about your cloudy pool.)

Sorry about the K2006 -- I followed the link out, and the Amato Industries shipped K2006 is no longer available. Amazon has switched in somebody else's K2006/K2005 but the pic is a K2005, so you did the right thing by ordering from Taylor.

You also need to understand a bit about our approach here.

Of necessity, it's not the same as it would be, if I came to your pool. If I did, I'd be able to snoop in your garbage can to find out what you'd been using, and I'd be able to check out your pump, filter and equipment directly. I'd test the water myself, and wouldn't have to depend on your pool store, or on your having to use an unfamiliar test kit. Most likely, if I could actually come to your pool, we could either clear it up faster OR get to the real issue right away (maybe, a new filter is needed).

We can't do any of those things. So in situations like yours, we have to go with a second best approach, which works like this:

1. Get you (or anyone else who comes here) to stop putting in mystery stuff that has effects no one, especially not your pool store guy, understands.
2. Make sure the basics are covered: chlorine, filtration, pH.
3. Get you (or whomever) to leave the things that aren't essential (alkalinity, calcium, TDS) alone.
4. Get you (or whomever) to leave things that come 2nd (like CYA) alone till we take care of 1st things (chlorine, filtration, pH).

The huge obstacle we face is the desire pool owners have to 'fix that ugly pool NOW'. That's an obstacle for us, because the best case pace for fixing your pool is going to be slower than you (or almost anyone else) like. So, we have to try to refocus pool owners on the basics, and slow them down.

I even coined a term for this years ago, when I said that P.O.P. was a key ingredient in solving situations like yours. Of course P.O.P = Pool Owner Patience. But, when we say we love POP, you have to understand that pool stores hate it! When you lack "POP", you are willing to shell our $$$'s buying "Pool filter in a bottle" or "Super Duper Clarifier Enzyme Magnet Mineralizer Goop". The profit margin on those items is 2x - 4x what it is on basic pool chemicals, which means pool stores just LOVE impatient pool owners.

So, we try to keep you (you all) out of pool stores, because we know what's going to happen to you if you go into one while you are frustrated: it's like sending a hungry man to the grocery store!

Another issue we face is trying to be simple and specific enough to avoid "close enough" substitutions that aren't "close enough". Your non-DE DE is an example. Quite reasonably, you thought that DE substitute would stand in for the DE I asked you to use. And, if my goal had been just to improve filter function, you'd have been right. Unfortunately, that wasn't my goal. But, because the non-DE DE may have 'stuck' in any holes in your filter, my attempt to TEST your filter with DE is now uncertain. If you add DE, and it comes back into the pool, we know you have filter problems. But if it doesn't come back, we don't know if that's because the filter is OK, or because the non-DE DE is catching it.

So where we end up is asking people to do just what we say, with exactly what we say, and only what we say. Of course, even we don't always agree completely. Watermom tends to suggest draining pools a bit more often than I would. I've seen floated liners and pools that have come out of the ground . . . so it always scares me a bit to suggest draining a pool.

Still, a lot of times this ends up working out really well. Occasionally it doesn't. It look like we may be moving into one of the cases where it "doesn't". This isn't your fault, and I don't think it's ours either. It's just life.

But, one of the things Watermom said is still sorta true. We can't help you, if you don't put "all your eggs in one basket". Our advice isn't compatible with pool store advice.

Something else you need to know. We can NOT help you clear up the pool as quickly as you want. And the fact that you want it cleared up so badly actually makes it likely we can't help you clear it up as quickly as we could with someone else who was a little less concerned. There are times when wanting stuff really really badly helps. But this isn't one of them.

We're in a situation here, where we're almost going to have to start over from scratch.
+ Your filter needs to be cleaned and then DE tested.
+ We need to know whether your algae is dead, or not.
+ We need to know whether your chlorine is high or not.
+ We need to know if you are putting anything in your pool that's almost what we said (like DE) but not exactly (like DE substitute).
+ We need to know if you can set aside all the things the pool store is telling you to worry about (TDS, alkalinity, etc.) and focus on JUST chlorine, filtration, & pH.

The Pool Forum has helped a lot of people, but we can't help everyone and that's OK, too.

Best wishes,

Ben

[CarlD]

RH Mom:

I guess what Ben's saying is ultimately your pool is your responsibility. There's very few problems that ONE of us hasn't seen before.

Right now it looks like you have 3 fundamental problems:
1. Is your filter working properly and, if not, can it be fixed or must it be replaced?
2. Do you have enough chlorine in your water to kill the algae?
3. Can you get the dead algae out once it's killed?

Everything else is (forgive me) a user-created problem. The pool store happily sold you stuff. You put it in. It got worse.

Draining is difficult and dangerous. The ONLY safe way to do a complete water replacement is Pocono's sheet plastic method. You cover the pool with a giant sheet of plastic. Put NEW water on top of the plastic while you drain the old water out from under it. When the plastic sheet hits the bottom of the pool, the water is replaced. This prevents liners and solid pools from floating out.