AG Freeze Damage

Hi all. I have a 52" x 21ft round steel above ground. It's about 10 years old and I've never had a winter problem except once the skimmer basket cracked - even with an expansion plug.

Did the same Fall maintenance as always - drain below the skimmer, plug the basket with an expansion plug, cover it.

Last week I looked out and noticed that about two sections have crumpling in the steel wall (supposed 50 year warranty, hmm) from the top to the water line. Crumpling is the best I can describe it. The crumples are horizontal and the top of the pool wall has pooled out from the top rail.

As the is my first experience with ice damage, I'm curious about what you all think, the prognosis, and your own experiences with ice damage.

Can anything else be done to prevent this?

Thanks!

I should add that I'm in Pennsylvania and the water in the pool is completely frozen.

Would it be possible for you to post a picture? I do about 25-30 insurance reports every year for damaged above ground pools. If I could see the damage it would be easier for me to diagnose the problem. Thanks

Brad
Waterworks Pools

Any chance your water level dropped and the cover is pulling the walls in?

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Originally Posted by Waterworks

Would it be possible for you to post a picture? I do about 25-30 insurance reports every year for damaged above ground pools. If I could see the damage it would be easier for me to diagnose the problem. Thanks

Brad
Waterworks Pools

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Hi. Thanks for your replies! I spoke with State Farm yesterday and they told me that above ground pools are an exclusion now, grrr. I had a feeling.

A couple of weeks ago, our temps dropped to -20 with the wind chill - about -negative 8 regular temperature, and they stayed that way for almost a week. That's really the only thing different about this year as opposed to any of the other 10 years we've had the pool.

Of course, my only option is to replace the pool now, and as you might guess, I'm concerned this will happen again and I want to prevent that from happening.

Anyone have any ideas? Where did I go wrong? We lowered the water level to 6 inches below the skimmer as always. The water level in the pool is about the same except the ice formed up the sides making it look like a big bowl. I'm guessing this has something to do with the way the ice accumulated at the skimmer. Pretty bizarre looking, eh? It's all crumpled up, and punched in and bulging out, too. It only affected these couple of sections around the skimmer.

If these pics are huge let me know and I'll resize them.


See pics below

They are pretty dam huge :)

Elle,
If you can resize the pics I'm sure those on dialup would appreciate it. Up until a few months ago I was one of those stuck with a slow connection. Anyhow...on the damage. Am I right in assuming the crinkling was just around the skimmer? I can't explain why it would happen but it looks like the water froze and was at or above skimmer level, then the water level and thus the ice block dropped and the ice chunk in the skimmer, attached to the massive ice block in the pool, pulled the skimmer and wall down. On my IG pool I routinely leave the water about halfway up the skimmer throat but I do ram a rectangular block of foam into the skimmer throat so no ice chunk protrudes into the skimmer. Your case sure doesn't look like what I would expect from ice expansion.
Al

Sorry folks! My browser automatically resizes the pics and sometimes I can't tell how large they are when I upload them.

I reduced them all. These should be better:

http://home.comcast.net/~iamelle/DSC02804_25.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~iamelle/DSC02796_25.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~iamelle/DSC02789_25.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~iamelle/DSC02782_25.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~iamelle/DSC02777_25.jpg

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Originally Posted by Poconos

Elle,
If you can resize the pics I'm sure those on dialup would appreciate it. Up until a few months ago I was one of those stuck with a slow connection. Anyhow...on the damage. Am I right in assuming the crinkling was just around the skimmer? I can't explain why it would happen but it looks like the water froze and was at or above skimmer level, then the water level and thus the ice block dropped and the ice chunk in the skimmer, attached to the massive ice block in the pool, pulled the skimmer and wall down. On my IG pool I routinely leave the water about halfway up the skimmer throat but I do ram a rectangular block of foam into the skimmer throat so no ice chunk protrudes into the skimmer. Your case sure doesn't look like what I would expect from ice expansion.
Al

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Hi Poconos,

Are you in the Poconos area? I'm in the Pittsburgh area.

Anyhoo, yes, the crinkling was just around the skimmer. When we winterized, we lowered the water to 6" below the skimmer like our manual said to do, and which we always do. Whenever rain would fill it up we'd syphon off the excess. Then all this cold weather and snow came. The water was still lower but when it froze, the sides seem to have frozen first and that ice raised considerably around the sides of the pool and leaving a depression in the center. The pics show it but not so well. It's bowl shaped. I suspect that the freezing rain we had filled up the skimmer and then slowly overflowed into the pool through the skimmer. It was so cold the water probably froze down the side of the pool before it even hit the bottom water level. I think the ice in the pool and the ice in the skimmer are now linked because of that accumulation and the weight of it is pulling down the wall. Amazing what force that must be on the steel sides. How many times do people stand on the upper rails and nothing happens? Plus, we haven't had this kind of cold weather in several years, so I didn't even suspect I'd have a problem.

My problem now is that I can't drain it because it's all solid ice. I'm concerned that the wall is going to let go and a huge iceberg is going to come blowing out of there. I hope it drops straight down and doesn't slide off into the neighborhood.

You said that you pack the skimmer with Styrofoam? Is that in addition to a plug or instead of a plug? I never thought of that but it sounds like a really good way to prevent this from happening again.

Like I said, the pool is 10 years old, so I'm not too upset. I would be if it were brand new, though. :( I'm trying to convince my husband to replace it with an inground, lol. We're in the process of putting on a huge addition so it would be a good time.

I just saw the posting section for AB pools. I swear I looked and didn't see that yesterday. I should have posted in there.

Sorry! :(

When you put in the pool did you get a building permit? Did you get a rider for your pool on your insurance?

If the answer is "no" to either of those that's why State Farm said it was an exclusion. If you had a building permit but no rider, S/F will probably still extend LIABILITY for damage caused by your pool, but that' s different.

That's why I tell people here to ALWAYS build according to code or their liability insurance is non-existent.

I'm going to call S/F to make sure my coverage is complete--but I did get the permits.

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Originally Posted by CarlD

When you put in the pool did you get a building permit? Did you get a rider for your pool on your insurance?

If the answer is "no" to either of those that's why State Farm said it was an exclusion. If you had a building permit but no rider, S/F will probably still extend LIABILITY for damage caused by your pool, but that' s different.

That's why I tell people here to ALWAYS build according to code or their liability insurance is non-existent.

I'm going to call S/F to make sure my coverage is complete--but I did get the permits.

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My husband is on our local zoning board so, the answer is, yes, we did get a permit, and yes, everything was built to code. I even had to have a master electrician come out inspect the electrical connections.

This is what State Farm told me...above ground pools used to be covered by regular homeowners insurance under the accessory structures part. There was no addendum necessary. Now, they don't cover above ground pools at all, and they don't offer any a rider or additional insurance for them that you can add to your regular policy. In fact, when I asked them how to insure an above ground pool, they told me I should call a pool dealer and see if they offer anything.

They no longer cover ice, wind, rain, storm damage to above ground pools, awnings, etc. because they aren't considered permanent structures.

Liability (if someone gets hurt in the pool) is covered.

Let me know what your agent tells you. I'm curious if mine is giving me the run around or even if State Farm insurance differs from state to state.

Hi again,
I use a gizmo to plug the skimmer pipe, then I pack pieces of eccofpam into the skimmer itself. Eccofoam is the closed cell foam that pool noodles are made from. Unlike styrofoam which shreds. Theoretically the gizmo should take care of expansion but I add the additional foam as insurance. I cut a rectangular block of the foam, probably 3" thick, that fits snugly in the opening. It's not an attempt to keep water out but rather to kind of make the pool wall continuous around the skimmer area so if the ice block moves a little there is no force at the skimmer. It extends past the skimmer face maybe an inch.
Just a quick calculation, for your 21' pool, if the ice is 12" thick, that's about an 18000 pound block of ice. Concentrate part of that in one area and you have a scrunch.
Al
BTW: Yes...I'm in the far northeast corner of the state, maybe 20 miles northeast of Scranton. Been pretty cold here too.

I would also say that an ice block extending from inside the pool to the inside of the skimmer is probably to blame. To prevent this from happening we drain the water below the skimmer and completely cover the skimmer opening with duct tape, so that no water or ice can get into the skimmer. Then we put a styrofoam peice in the throat of the skimmer. We leave the plug out of the bottom of the skimmer and leave the hose from the skimmer unattached and open at the other end. This way, if water gets into the skimmer it will flow out the end of the hose, not allowing anything to freeze in the skimmer.

Many insurance companies in my neck of the woods still insure AG pools, some don't. I always recommend calling around to find one that does.

Brad
Waterworks Pools

Thanks again for the replies.

I think the styrofoam is the way to go, and the eccofoam is a good idea,too. I have been using the gizmo only for years...but I don't think we've had a cold winter like this since I've had the pool.

It also makes sense to block the opening and leave the gizmo out entirely. If no water gets trapped in there it's not going to freeze either.