Nature 2, BBB Method and KIS

First - Hello and Thank you to all of the members who put this great website together! We are pool newbies - and new to a very warm climate, so we are in MEGA learn mode. Up until about 1 week ago, I just assumed all info the pool installers / pool suppliers provide is gospel. Then started reading This Site and Trouble Free Pool just to try to get a balanced view / more information on the MANY products recommended to keep the pool running. Now we are confused and would like some guidance, so that we can get 'into a stride' with maintaining our pool and hopefully never or minimally having to solve any serious problems. Hence this post for answers to questions/advice.

BBB Method - How simple and great of a concept is this! If this had been first explained, I know I wouldn't be feeling so overwhelmed. I definitely would like to start using this method and I am all about KIS - Keeping It Simple - and therefore hopefully cheaper, less maintenance, etc. But believe we need to modify some things, just what I am unsure.

Our Pool: 18000 gallons, IG, gunite, freeform with WetEdge Satin Matrix finish. Chlorine (not SWG) with Nature 2 DuoClear, Jandy Stealth 1.5 pump, Jandy 460 sqft Cartridge Filter, Auto Chlorine Dispenser, Eco Venturi Skimmer.
Location: Missouri City, Texas, just south of Houston. Brand New Pool - Filled pool for first time 1st Aug 2014.

Please advise if anyone requires or suggests more detail on the pool.

Questions/Advice:
1. Reading lots about the Nature2 filters. I gather most people on this forum are not in favor of them. I plan on purchasing Taylor K-2006 test kit. And would like to get my supply water tested (from the mains) for metals to act as a baseline. Recommendations on how/where to test for metals? Or does anyone have experience with the water composition for our zip code 77459? We just 'activated' our 1st 6 mos (and probably last) Nature2 cartridge, as the cartridge supplied by installer was only good for 1st 30 days. I am now wondering if I should remove it (ie panic due to metal contamination/stain risk) or just wait the 6 months and then not put another in. Also, the way our cartridge is connected, means we have to have 'something' in the hole (ie saw off the bottom half of filter & leave the screw cap portion in). Please advise if we should saw off bottom half or just leave in situ after the 6 mos.

Further to the leave in /take out Nature2 discussion, our pool installer recommended Jacks Magic Magenta stuff every 3 months. If we leave in the Nature 2 system, would you recommend this product or another & why? If we take out Nature 2, would we still need to do this, at that frequency, or need another product?

2. Currently using Leslies 3 inch Jumbo Tablets. If I continue using those instead of Bleach (I know different strengths of bleach out there, so I assume using the approx 12% would be best if going down the bleach route), are the drawbacks of using tablets just CYA increasing and cost? Just trying to understand consequences of convenience of tabs once per week vs Bleach daily.

3. Had water tested by pool supplier, then I adjusted TA & pH before installed new Nature2 cartridge. This is summary of the pool supplier testing & mine after some adjustment and before the 'shock' treatment of cal-hypo to activate the cartridge:

FC - 4; TC - 4; CH - 250; CYA - 50; TA - 90ish; pH - 7.3ish; Total Dissolved solids - 600; Phosphates - 200.

Pool Installer (based on using Nature2) recommends TC of 1-3; pH of 7.2-7.4; TA - 80-90; CYA - 30-50; CH - 200-250.

Do the pool installer's ranges seem reasonable or should we be aiming for something different if we take out the Nature2 and go with the BBB method?

What do you all recommend to keep the Phosphates low? I think it is Phosphates which cause the algae start but perhaps I have misunderstood or remembered the different posts incorrectly.

4. Is there any other general advice you can give us for maintaining pool and/or preventing problems which would be more likely to occur in our area?

Many thanks to all of you pool gurus out there!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welshpoolgirl

... I think it is Phosphates which cause the algae start but ...

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Does your pool have algae now? Has it had any

no never had (touch wood/fingers crossed) and hopefully wont. Just trying to start the best preventative maintenance I can...

If there's a way to remove the Nature2 I would do so. You do NOT want to leave the cartridge in, but they've shafted you so you have no choice but to use one, unless you redo your plumbing (probably not hard) to by-pass it or remove it.

With a new masonry pool, generally, Tri-Chlor tabs can work very well. Such pools tend to have a rising pH as they cure, and Tri-Chlor is very acidic so it can offset some of that. Also, new water needs a certain level of CYA (Stabilizer) and Tri-Chlor adds 6ppm of the CYA for ever 10ppm of chlorine.

Being in Texas, you may WELL want to run your pool with a CYA of 80. That's generally high, and your recommended FC level is between 5 and 10 ppm, but it may well keep you from constantly losing chlorine and risking an algae bloom.

The numbers your builder said of an FC of 1 with a CYA of 30-50, even with a Nature2, is a sure-fire way to get an algae bloom--in a hot place like Texas.

I'm also surprised at the builder's rec of 200-250 for CH. Normally, 200-400 is the recommended range for a masonry pool, with a TA range of 80-120. (However, with a new pool curing and their tendency to increase in pH, a lower TA would be called for to buffer that--that's why his rec pH is to the low side.)

Phosphates don't cause algae--they feed it. If you don't have algae, NO amount of phosphates will cause it. In fact, in all the years I've been here there have been maybe 5 cases where phosphate remover was appropriate.

Hi Carl - thanks for the speedy & informative reply. So to summarize - 1. Remove Nature2 cartridge if poss to eliminate risk of staining / adding any more copper/silver to water. 2. Keep using Tri-Chlor tabs instead of trying to switch to bleach. 3. Possibly let CYA go up as high as 80 (still within normal according to pool suppliers). 4. Try to maintain TC / FC at 5-10 in order to prevent algae?

Any thoughts on whether I should be adding Magenta Stuff every 3 months as a preventative? Not sure of what our fill water normally has in it or if the installer just recommended that because of the Nature2 system.

Not sure what Magenta stuff is ---- I've never heard of it ---- which leads me to believe that the answer is NO, you should not add it!

Personally, I would run my pool with CYA of 50 for awhile before deciding to up it to 80. CYA is easy to increase, difficult to lower. Just my opinion.

Welcome to the Pool Forum!

WPG,
FYI, sometimes Watermom and I, or some of the others on the support team, "gang up" in our advice. iOW we play tag team, adding on to what the last person said or didn't say. It is usually not contradictory, but is more info.

So when Watermom says don't add the magenta stuff, we speak with one voice on that. :)

Jack's Magic Magenta Stuff is a metal sequestrant (specifically an acrylic acid copolymer). The reason the pool installer recommended it is because you are using Nature[sup]2[/sup] which puts metal ions into the pool that can stain pool surfaces (especially plaster surfaces). Of course, the better approach is not to use the Nature[sup]2[/sup] in the first place since you don't need it. The reason the pool installer put that system in is that you are using Trichlor tabs where continued use of them builds up CYA which reduces chlorine effectiveness unless you raise the FC level as the CYA level rises. So he basically was adding the Nature[sup]2[/sup] to provide a copper ion algaecide. Certainly not a KISS method as it is more complicated and more expensive.

Well put, Richard!

The far cheaper alternative, and more effective, too (to using the N2 + Jack's Magic), is to use your K-2006 test kit to test your CYA level weekly, and check your FC and pH level daily. A simple OTO/Phenol kit will make doing that easier than the K-2006, and you can run the FC, CC, pH, TA, CH and CYA tests weekly using the K-2006.

Then, when your CYA hits your target level, you stop the tablets, and begin using bleach or liquid chlorine to maintain your FC levels at the range recommended in the Best Guess table.
To control rising pH (if you still have it), you ca use Muriatic Acid, available at most hardware stores, or generic Dry Acid, sold at pool stores, K-Mart, WalMart and, I think CostCo.

Once your pool is cured, the rising pH should end.

You won't have metals, your pool will be clean, and you'll save beaucoup bucks.

To ChemGeek & CarlD and WaterMom - Thank you sooooo much for your advice. It really makes sense and it is exactly the info I was looking for / hoping to confirm. My K-2006 kit has been shipped & I should receive this week.

Out of curiosity - since we are in Texas & due to the climate/extended pool season - would it be reasonable to consider using tri-chlor tabs in the summer and liquid bleach in the winter to help counteract rising CYA? And also out of curiosity, the Magenta Stuff -- if it helps prevent the stains from metals, what kind of residual stuff would be left over in the water & would it eventually dissipate like chlorine or would it stick around like other particles? And can testing the water somehow pick that stuff up? Just wondering since I know the pool installer dumped an entire container of the stuff in the pool within a week of the fill.

The answer on the bleach vs Tri-chlor comes down to testing. If your pH is good and your CYA is where you want it, don't use tablets, regardless of the time of year. If your CYA is low and your pH is a bit high,then by all means you can use Tri-Chlor. Bleach doesn't affect CYA, pH, TA, or CH. You can adjust pH separately with Muriatic or Dry Acid to lower, Borax to raise. You can increase CYA by adding CYA powder.

Tri-chlor tabs can be CONVENIENT but aren't necessary.

I don't believe you understand how insidious Trichlor tabs can be. The following are chemical facts independent of concentration of product or of pool size.

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

So with a typical 2 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, Trichlor tabs will increase CYA by 36 ppm PER MONTH. They are of course fine to use if you are low in CYA and intend for it to increase or if you are going to use them for a shorter period of time (say while on a week vacation), but you really have to be careful not to overuse them. I doubt very much that you would be able to use them for an entire summer season unless your season is short (that does not sound like your situation) and/or you have significant summer rain overflow to dilute the water.

Though I know what happens to the HEDP-based metal sequestrants we normally recommend (when needed), I do not know what happens to the acrylic acid copolymer, but it doesn't look like it's a molecule that breaks down very much from chlorine. I don't know if there are any tests for it (you can contact Jack's Magic to ask them both questions -- what happens to it and can its level be tested). I will say that polyacrylic acid (PAA) which it may contain will produce a precipitated mess if you were to use a cationic clarifier (most pool clarifiers are cationic). That's one reason we don't recommend using it.