high pH and TA, cloudy water

HELP!!

24ft round AG pool. Primarily use chlorine bleach, but occasionally add leftover (from previous owners) tri-chlor pucks for CYA. Opened early to clear water, but very low level. Thought we had a leak in the liner, but it seems the pump has a slow leak. Haven't done anything bc we will likely be replacing pool within next summer or two.

Was doing fine until a few weeks ago, just adding about half gallon of bleach every 2-3 days (or a puck). Water was crystal clear and levels seemed appropriate.

BTW - I primarily use the walmart drop tester. However, I am out of CYA reagant (which walmart does not sell) so I bought a box of the walmart strips to suppliment until I can find more CYA drops.

While we were out of town, pH was a bit low and water had lost its "sparkle" so I asked my father to add 1/4 box of borax one time. Unfortunately, he added 1/4 box each night for 4 nights!! Ever since, the pH has been high (as in more bluish-red than the 8.2 on the kit) and the water getting increasingly cloudy. I added about 3/4 of a bottle of pH down (in two increments) leftover from prev owners, so at least 2 years old and it seemed to clear up temporarily, but clouded up again. I bought another bottle of pH down. Put in two yesterday. Two more this am. NO change in pH.

Current readings
(from kit)
Cl 3-5
pH above 8.2
TA still no pink after 25+ drops

(on strips)
pH above 8.2
TA above 240
CYA 50

What else can I do? I am a bit scared of the muriatic acid, because I am pregnant. I could TRY and get hubby to do it, but he works 80+ hours a week, so the pool maintenance generally falls to me since I am home.

Other info you need, or other suggestions?

J

You've got two options: use more sodium bisulfate or use muriatic acid. Personally, I'd have had no hesitation asking my wife to add MA, when she was pregnant. The hazards aren't of that kind. The primary SERIOUS hazard is to your eyes (not your baby!), and that's why I say be careful, wear glasses, and plan to dunk your head immediately if you were to get some in your eye.

The other hazard are actually more a matter of irritation than danger. Unlike other pool gases (ozone is notable), hydrogen chloride is SERIOUSLY irritating, before it's actually dangerous. If you get it on your skin, it will hurt, before it hurts you. (Sulfuric acid is the opposite, and I've still got the scars from 40 years ago to prove it.) Likewise, if you inhale it, you'll back off (WAY OFF) before you actually can't breathe.

But it's not mutagenic -- after all, the SAME exact acid is present in your stomach at fairly high concentrations!

So, I'd just recommend reading the instructions, linked in my signature, and then going at it.

ok. So I'm safe as long as I use eye protection and follow your precautions. We have a Lowe's 5 mins away. I just (within the past few hours) added 18 ounces of the pH down. Can I retest and add muriatic acid today, or should I wait until tomorrow? How long after I add the acid can I add bleach? Also, how long after adding the acid can we swim? A few hours? The next day? And, where can I buy replacement CYA reagent for the Walmart kit? I don't really trust the strips for the CYA, and I am not sure if I am keeping my chlorine high enuf, based on how much CYA I (think I) have.

Thanks so much! Sorry for all the questions. I am really not a dumb (graying) blonde, but when it comes to this pool chem, I often feel like one.

J

As long as you use eye protection and don't breathe the fumes, you'll be fine. I have had it splash on my hand before, but if that happens you just dunk it in the pool and wash it off, and it's no big deal. You can retest after adding the dry acid--give it an hour or so to circulate, and then test again, and then add your muriatic if you need to. After adding the MA, again let it circulate for an hour or so before testing for pH again, and you can continue this until you get the pH where you want it. You can add bleach within 15-20 minutes after the acid addition with no problems. When I use either bleach or MA, I pour it very slowly into the return stream in my deep end, so the jets help mix it and disperse it around the pool. So once you've added the MA, you just want enough time to make sure it's been pushed away from the addition point before adding the bleach. The same goes for swimming--just give it an hour or so to make sure there aren't any "hot pockets" of bleach or acid in the pool, and it's fine to swim.

You can buy replacement CYA reagent online at several places, including amatoindustries.com, taylortechnologies. com, or spspoolspas.com (that's where I get mine).

Don't rely on the test strips for CYA--they're just not reliable enough.

Janet

To answer your questions:
-- go ahead and add more acid today after you test pH to see where it is
-- fine to add bleach 15 minutes after adding acid --- just need to get it mixed it a bit first
-- You can swim 15-30 minutes after adding acid or bleach. As long as it has had time to mix in so nobody swims into a hot spot, you're fine.
-- You can buy CYA reagent (R-0013) from the test kit link in Ben's signature above.

By the way, will you please take a minute and add your pool's information to our pool chart? It makes it easier for someone here on the forum to give you good advice to you.

Pool Chart Entry Form
Pool Chart Results

EDIT -- Looks like Jan was posting while I was typing but our advice is nearly all the same.

Thanks for your help. I'll report back after we get some MA. Approx how long (how many 1/4 gallon additions) will it take to lower the pH? Will the MA also help my incredibly high TA? I am using well water if that makes any difference. Last summer, when we filled, our outdoor hoses came off AFTER all our water treatment (iron out, water softener, greenlight filter) but this year hubby had the hose bays changed so they are directly off the well. We have had to fill slightly more often than last year bc we have a slow leak near the pump. I am not sure if that is the reason for my increased difficulty or not.

BTW, I did complete the pool chart earlier before I posted.

Thanks for your help!
J

As your pH comes down, so will your alk--and as the pool is aerated by swimming, splashing, etc, the TA will slowly be stripped away (until it raises again when you top off your pool :( )

There's not much of a way for me to guess how many additions it will take to bring the pH down--a lot depends on how high the pH really is, what your TA is (the higher the TA, the more likely it is to take more MA) and what your actual doses really are. You'll just have to add, test, and adjust--trying to shoot for exact numbers doesn't work very well!

Janet

Tested late afternoon.

CL 1-3
pH 7.8
TA 190

Added MA.

Tested now (about 2-3 hrs later)
CL 1
pH 7.5-7.8
TA 240!

Why did the TA increase with the MA??

Ugh. This is so frustrating. I see no difference in the water's clarity...still very cloudy. Now perhaps slightly green tinged.

I added the rest of the pH down (just to use it up -about 9 oz). Waited a few mins and added a gallon of bleach. Will test again in the am.

Acid isn't the only thing that will cure cloudy water--and with a CYA of 50, a Cl of 1-3 isn't nearly enough to keep algae from growing in the pool. I would shock the pool to 15-18 ppm, using bleach, and hold it there until you can go from sundown to sunup without losing more than 1 ppm of chlorine. I'm betting your cloudy water is an algae bloom, not a pH issue.....

Janet

Thanks Janet. That's what I am now wondering, since my cloudiness has turned greenish. I added a gallon last night, and my walmart kit is reading "at least" 5 (it's slightly darker yellow than that). How do I know if I am at 15-18? Add 2 more gallons and "hope?" This am my TA is down to 180 and the pH is 7.5 Should I add some more MA too?

I wouldn't worry about the TA and pH right now. pH is fine where it is, and TA isn't going to be critical right now, as much as clearing up the algae is. Here's how to force your kit to read higher chlorine readings than it was designed to....
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/how-...d-testkit.html

If your pool is 24' diameter, and 48" from floor to water level, then I'm estimating about 13,500 gallons. Do I have the dimensions right? In 13,500 gallons, each 1 gallon of 6% bleach you add is going to raise your FC by 4.4 ppm. Each 3.5 cups of bleach will raise your FC by 1 ppm, so you can use those as a reference point. You need to get it up to 15-18 ppm and hold it there by testing as often as possible and adding whatever amount of bleach you need to get back up over the 15 ppm mark, until you can measure at sundown and then again in the morning before the sun hits the pool, and not lose more than 1 ppm of chlorine in that time. When you get to that point, and the pool has cleared up, then you can let your chlorine drift back down--but only to the 3-6 ppm range. Any lower than that, and you're going to have algae growing. If you can, brush the pool after your chlorine additions, and keep your filter running 24/7 during the process, cleaning the filter as your pressure indicates.

Janet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aylad

If your pool is 24' diameter, and 48" from floor to water level, then I'm estimating about 13,500 gallons. Do I have the dimensions right? In 13,500 gallons, each 1 gallon of 6% bleach you add is going to raise your FC by 4.4 ppm. Each 3.5 cups of bleach will rai

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She listed 24 round x 3.5' depth on the pool chart. Assuming that the 3.5' is overflow, and her WATER depth is 3', her volume is ~10,000 gallons as she estimated. If the WATER depth is 3.5' (48" walls) then her volume may be closer to 11,800.

Thanks guys. Off to add more chlorine. Hubby says its closer to 4ft. He was estimating about 14,000 gallons, not the 10K I thought. I ordered more CYA reagent from the Amazon link last night, so hopefully that will come soon. can I get distilled water at Walmart? Will need to run there and get more bleach bc I think I only have 1-2 more gallons at home.

J

You should be able to get distilled water there--if you can't find it with the rest of the water, check the baby section...sometimes the stores here put it there for mixing formula bottles with.

In 10,000 gallons of water, that same 1 gallon of bleach will raise your Cl by 6 ppm. In 11,800, 1 gallon raises it by 5.1. So...you're still in the ballpark, just add what you think you need, test, and then adjust from there.

Janet

Well, hubby added two packs of HTH Super shock and swim that he "found" while I was getting more bleach at Wallys. Ugh. The previous owners left a LOT of stuff. We bought the house last summer, and they had not opened the pool the previous year so the shock is at least 2-3 years old. Reading the package, my est is that the chlorine should be around 15 by now, and by using the distilled water method, I dilute 3 times and it still looks the same- the bright yellow that is the 5, or sl brighter. The pool is still very cloudy (can not see the bottom) and green. So I am guessing I wait until morning and test again? How long can I expect it to be like this? I have no clue how it got this bad. Last year, we had little trouble with adding chlorine a few times a week, and using the trichlor pucks 1-2 times for CYA (it never seemed to add much). This year, it seems (tho I don't have the CYA reagent yet, and I guess the sticks are inaccurate) that my CYA is much higher bc the same amt of chlorine was not enough. Last year, if it ever got slightly tinged, I added a bit more bleach and it cleared up overnight. I never had the clear (not green) cloudiness that started this whole downslide. It was nearly 100 today and we can't use our pool (that right now looks more like the Erie Canal). YUCK! I hope we didn't mess anything up with the shock and swim, though I don't think it can get much worse! We will definitely be sticking to bleach after this (DH got an earful!).

J

Maybe the old shock and swim needs to "disappear" the next time he leaves the house for errands! :)

I would add bleach until you get dark yellow on the tester, then leave it til the morning and test again. The dilution method you're using gives a pretty good ballpark, but it won't hurt to put just a little extra in, for good measure.

Janet

Pool still very cloudy and green, tho lighter maybe? Yesterday I could not see the bottom when I brushed, but today I could actually see the brush. Nothing seems to be coming up, and the filter basket had very little debris in it.

Tested again this am with the dilution method. Got up to 4 distilled water to 1 pool and it was still bright yellow, so clearly still chlorine in the pool. pH now up to 7.8
On the dip stick (CYA reagent on order but not here yet) the CYA was 100?? Is that poss? I have not used trichlor pucks in a few weeks and have certainly not added any CYA. how did it rise? so I added 2 more gallons of bleach. Will test again in a few hours

Another scorcher here in upstate NY. DH wants to call the "pool doctor" so we can swim, but I've convinced him to hold out for a few more days. Anything else I should be doing?

Tested again now. With 6 dilutions, it is still bright yellow, but maybe slightly less than the 5 (tho darker than the 3). MY strips are showing a CYA of 100. I pray this is NOT accurate, but using Ben's best guess chart, perhaps it is and that is why the chlorine I have added has not done much. I wish I had a way to test CC but I don't. And my CYA reagent is supposed to ship today, with an estimated delivery of Fri to next Wed. So I brushed the sides and bottom (even tho still nothing in the filter basket except for some lawn clippings that blew in after our lawn was moved) and added 2 more gallons.

I know this process will take time, but I just wish I knew I was on the right track. When we opened our pool the first time last year and it was green (neglected for over 2 yrs) I don't recall it taking that long to clear. maybe it did.... UGH.

Any other suggestions or things I should be doing? Just keep at it and be patient?

When you say 6 dilutions, do you mean 6 parts of distilled water to 1 part of pool water? If so, then that means your chlorine is approximately 28ppm since you would multiply your result of 4 by 7.) (Ex. 1 part pool water, 1 part distilled, multiply result by 2 so if you get 5 on the scale then it would be about 10ppm. If you do 1 part pool water to 2 parts distilled, you multiply by 3. So, 5 X 3 = 15, etc.)

Until you get the CYA reagent, just try and keep the chlorine in the 25ppm range as best you can. (It may be that your CYA is higher than 100 but no way to know that at this time.)

A pH reading will not be accurate at high chlorine levels. If your chlorine drops to 5 or lower, then retest pH. Otherwise, don't bother as you won't get a result you can trust.

Run your pump 24/7 and clean the filter as needed. Is your filter pressure rising?

And, yes ....... patience is necessary. Have your husband come and do some reading here on the forum and also over at our sister website www.poolsolutions. If you hold the course, your pool will clear up. If you start adding other things, it is probably going to complicate things and take longer.

Isn't the shock n' swim dichlor? or is it cal-hypo?

At any rate, you can't depend on a test strip to give you a CYA reading, so really the only thing you can do is keep the chlorine in the dark yellow range of your tester, brush the pool as often as you can with chlorine additions, and keep the filter running. It takes time, chlorine, and patience--patience often being the hardest part of them all.

Janet

I looked it up and shock n swim is cal-hypo. Hmmm. Did I miss it or is there a calcium hardness reading somewhere in this thread? If you have high pH, high TA and high calcium hardness, that can also be a cause of cloudy water. Your CH may not be high, but ...... I think I would just stick with bleach.

UPDATE:

Woke up yesterday to "cold" temps and crystal clear water! HIP HIP HORRAY!! Score another one for the BBB!

I just tested now. Chlorine is "off the charts." Didn't do the dilution test, but it was a bright orange color...one I've never seen before. CYA reagent came and it looks like it is about 30-40. I could almost not see the dot at 50, barely see it at 40 (if I squinted) and def could not see it at 30. So using Ben's best guess chart, I need to let my chlorine drop to about 3-5 before we can swim, correct? So back into the color range of my HTH test kit.

Here are the results
Cl - prolly above 25, orange color
TA -180
pH 7.8
CYA 30-40?

Watermom asked about Ca Hardness. We do fill from a well, and for our household use, have a water softener. But our outside spigots are directly from the well, and not treated. My HTH instructions say to add 25mL of pool water and 5 drops of hardness indicator and it should turn pink if its hard water. I see blue drops that sink to the bottom and when agitated, the beaker turns a very pale yellowish. The indicator drops are supposed to turn it from pink to blue. I added 9 drops and it turned pink. Not sure what this means.

Should we add more MA to drop the pH some more? I need to vacuum bc there is a few pockets of brown "dust" at the bottom. Otherwise it is crystal clear. (un)Fortunately, temps have dropped into the lower 70's so we won't be swimming today, which is good bc I think we would bleach ourselves snow white if we got in now. Anything else I need to do besides watch and wait while the cl drops?

Thank you so much for your wisdom and encouragement. I think hubs is slowly becoming a believer!

J

Yes, with a TA=180, you want to keep your pH < 7.6, till your TA is lower. Otherwise, it will tend to rise too high, and get away from you.

Greater than 7.6? So leave the pH alone? Or did you mean lower, and add more MA? Can I lower the TA somehow?

Here is the procedure for lowering TA.

Lowering Alkalinity Step-by-Step

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fiveUNDERfive

Greater than 7.6? So leave the pH alone?

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My bad. LESS THAN 7.6!

I was typing faster than I was thinking!

Darn. I didn't catch it when I posted either.

In my experience, the hardness indicator will turn yellow with high chlorine levels (while shocking). You'll have to wait for your chlorine levels to come down before getting an accurate hardness test.

I think you may be confusing the hardness test with the alkalinity test: all the Taylor videos are here:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?17157
but the one you want is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpS--VsNrY&