Super II Pump Replacment Decision

I'm a relative newbie who's been able to keep the water nice and clean. But I have a "serious" equipment decision to make at this time and would appreciate any input. This last winter, a pipe came lose lose on top of my Hayward Super II Pump. I ran it at night because it was freezing that night (Orlando FL). When I woke up the pool was empty to the skimmer. I don't do my own plumbing, so I called a pool guy. Fixed. There were some other minor leaks that I wanted to fixed while we were at it, so he came back and replaced some parts, O-rings and stuff, all good, no extra labor cost. Just a minor leak remained. He said it was the pump gaskets/seals. I decided not to do anything because it was a very minor leak. A couple months later, I couldn't open the pump skimmer lid. It was like bolted down, and I had never had this problem before. Asked my pool guy who came back and opened it, again for free. Problem is, after he was done with that, there was now MAJOR leaking around the pump. He said it was those gaskets/seals, even though it was much stronger now. So, reluctantly, I said OK, replace all the seals/gaskets. NO IMPROVEMENT in leakage. He says it's most likely that I have a leak in the pump housing, which he just couldn't have known because 99% of the time, you replace the shaft seal, it's fixed. Of course my instinct is, he broke that when opening the lid. But I'm not pissed at him, it may not be his fault per se, just that maybe it happened when he put the pliers.

Anyway, so the decision I'm asking about is, replace the housing or replace the entire pump? It seems like the pump is 11 years old, the motor is from 2010. The housing costs about $200, the pump depending on where I buy it is about $400 (eBay - side question, is eBay OK for this??) to $450. My pool guy would let me buy my own either housing or pump and put it in for "free", as long as pay him for the seal/gasket replacement labor. I'm leaning toward getting the entire pump replaced and then keeping the old one for parts, in particular I would have a brand-new seal kit and a relatively new motor, which I could keep in reserve and then just put in when this motor goes. It might take 5 years or more to realize the savings, but in the end, it would be a much better deal than just getting the housing now, wouldn't it? And what if the new housing didn't fix it, then what? Might as well get the whole thing - parts on their own seem way more than the whole. I would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you!!!

I'd replace the whole pump . . . and go to a 2-speed! Check on what rebate you can get from your power utility -- it may be substantial.

Take a look at this page: http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-Pu...Categories.bok for pricing. Allow $50 or more for shipping. A1PoolParts has *seemed* reliable; I've used them myself a couple of times, and they do have a physical location and a real store, so they are not like a lot of the Internet sites that are just an office, with 10 pool guys who can order for them.

You'll have to add either a timer or a toggle switch:
Intermatic T10604R Pool/Spa Control Center T106M and T104M @ Amazon
Southwire 55189301 3/4-Inch 6-Feet ULTRA Whip-Pre-Assembled with Wires and Connectors @ Amazon
Leviton 1282 15 Amp, 120/277 Volt, Toggle Double Throw @ Amazon

But, you should get payback -- even without a rebate -- in a year or two, and you'll get a MUCH quieter pump, as well as BETTER filtration. (All filters work better with slow flow for more hours, rather than high flow for fewer hours.)

Thanks. The thing w/ 2-speed is that I have a solar heating system with panels on the 2nd story roof, so I wasn't going to attempt trying to figure that out at this time. My current pump is SP3010X15AZ (or at least that's what I figure the replacement needs to be - my label is totally worn out). All I really have is the label on the motor, which is 1.5 HP, SF 1.

Hm-mh.

Need pictures and drawings, sent to poolforum@gmail.com.

Does your solar system have a vacuum relief valve? If not, you can use a timer to start on high, get the air out, and then switch to low. But, you'll need to do that 2x per day, to avoid air locking the solar system.

Thanks for the advice, but I don't think I'm ready to do this major upgrade. I'm very conservative. Also, I wanted to be able to keep the current motor and put it back on when the new one goes. What I would maybe like to do is get the EE version of the Super II for now. But I'm confused. What I have now is SP3010X15AZ. This is 1.5 HP, 1.0 SF. The EE line has a SP3010EEAZ model, which has 1.0 HP but 1.5 SF. Their higher rated is SP3010X15AZ, which has 1.5 HP, but 1.35 SF. There is a chart here. http://www.inyopools.com/Products/02201169001153.htm. Will the 1HP, 1.5 SF be 100% equivalent to what I have now? I've tried to understand the HP/SF connection, but (seeing that I'm conservative bordering on the scared), I am just looking for confirmation that SP3010EEAZ is the exact replacement for me and that I can use my current motor back on it when the time comes. Does this make any sense?

Here's the crossover data from Hayward:
http://www.hayward-pool.com/images/p...I_perfdata.gif
( http://www.hayward-pool.com/prd/In-G...1_14002__I.htm )

OK, thanks again. So it looks like they are interchangeable, yes??? I even called Hayward, they said so, too. BUT: they also said the amp draw on BOTH is IDENTICAL on SP3010X15AZ and SP3010EEAZ. How can one be more energy efficient if they draw the same amps? On the Inyo chart, this looks different, with a lower amp on the EE pump. To make me even more confused, the manual has a KW number that is 1.1 for the regular and .75 for the EE. And it states to make sure one has the correct wire for the KW number. So is this a problem when installing? I actually ordered the EE already, but now I'm STILL not sure if it was the right move? Thanks....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by versstef1

I actually ordered the EE already, but now I'm STILL not sure if it was the right move?

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The time to decide whether you're going to jump in, is before you're in the air. Once you're in the air, it's better to concentrate on not going SPLAT!

What you've run into is the old 'up rate' vs 'full rate' label game pool pump manufacturers have been playing for years. The *ONLY* difference between an SP3010EECZ and a SP3010X15AX is the label -- there is NO other difference: same parts; same motor (except the label); same efficiency; same wiring.

Stefan, you have ALREADY made your choice. I don't see a lot of value in discussing whether it was the best possible choice, especially when we are so far behind in trying to help people. If you change your mind, and send it back, let us know, and we can look at it again.

Maybe.

You already know it's not what I would recommend.

We absolutely believe in everyone's right to make their very own choices about their pool gear. If they want to buy SuperDuper All Eco Friendly DayGlo Pool Slime for $200 per ounce . . . we think that's absolutely their right (so long as it doesn't poison the neighbors ;) ). But, we don't see a lot of point in discussing it with them -- it's not a product or an approach we support. We're not mad; we just need to focus on helping people who ARE listening to our advice.

Best wishes!

Thank you. Wish you had told me that this is a game before. I was not able to discern that, and I've looked around. I don't understand how they get to call it energy efficient if it all is the same. Anyway, I pulled the trigger so that's it for. I hope you can appreciate that I am not ready for multispeed upgrade, not everyone is. I just moved i here a year ago and have had my fair share of maintenance issues. I came here for help with a specific decision, and the answer was a whole other animal. All good though, appreciate your efforts in maintaining this forum in general. Maybe someone will get something from reading my dumb post .... Namely that there is a labeling game going on.

Stefan,

There's no way I can tell you all I know about pool pumps, or all that's relevant to your situation. I don't have time, and you wouldn't listen to that much stuff if I did.

When you first posted, you basically asked, "Should I replace just the motor, or get a whole new pump?". I told you to get a pump, and suggested that you get a two speed. It appears you're getting a single speed version of your current pump, but I can't be sure about that -- you haven't provided enough info (like pictures!).

You asked nothing about energy efficiency or comparing one pump to another. You did say you wanted to keep the current motor as a back-up. If you had gotten the 2 speed version of your current pump, you could have done exactly that.

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You haven't asked, but let me give you a general rule about buying pool products from salespeople. Actually, it's about buying from salespeople generally. Here's the rule: "You can tell when a sales person is lying, by watching their mouth. If it's moving, they're lying!"

I used to think that was a joke. Then, I thought it only applied to a few sales people. Now that I'm nearly 60, I know better. There are exceptions, of course. But, that's the general rule.

Here's another general tip about pool business. Again, it applies to consumer goods generally. When a sales person . . . or advertisement says a product is

+ more efficient;
+ chemical-free;
+ more eco-friendly;
+ or has a 50 year warranty;

you are usually about to be deceived.

You can go through the pool industry, and separate the business into those who have "Eco-" in their names, and those who don't. The businesses in the first class are, taken as a whole, and exceptions noted, shysters. It's true outside the pool business, too.

And, finally, one more rule: when shyster businesses play shyster games, like "Buy the NEW All-natural chemical-free "Eco-treat" for your pool, and save $1,000's" [As far as I know, there is NO "Eco-treat" product, at least today ], the non-shyster businesses watch, and eventually begin 'shystering' too. If those bogus claims WORK and sell product, the non-shyster companies start calling THEIR products "all-natural" and "chemical-free" (or: "high tech", "new and improved", "all new", etc) too. They feel like if the shyster's get away with it, they'll take the business from the non-shyster companies.

So, leaving a few shyster businesses standing INEVITABLY means the non-shyster companies begin to use shyster tactics, too just to keep up.

Hayward used to be one of the more stand-up pool companies. But they had to compete with Pentair, who was gobbling up every equipment maker out there, and Zodiac International, S.A.S.U, run with typical French honesty and integrity. I have no idea which one of those companies started the up-rate / full rate game, but it predates me, and I've been in the pool business nearly 30 years. Any company that didn't play would get hurt. Given a choice, very, very few companies will chose to hurt themselves, instead of you.

Hope it works out for you with your equipment. Sometimes it is hard to know what is what. They certainly confuse me! See ya around the forum!

Well, I guess I messed this up. If you only know how much effort I put into this, stress and time, that is. Lesson learned, approach it more calmly next time. But on the two speed, you lost me when you asked for drawings. I ain't got no drawings (I also don't do no plumbing and electrical goes just to the point of changing my timer motor, which I accomplished with GREAT price last year). I have a solar guy who bascially told me to avoid the two and variable speed, and that sounded good to me, keep it simple. Well, no I have about 10 years to figure it out, I suppose. Again, thanks and sorry for wasting your time.

It doesn't actually sound like it's messed up.

It sounds like you have gotten a pump that will work, pretty much like the one you had before. That may not be optimal, but it's pretty far from messed up.

By messed up I meant my foray into this forum! I didn't use it to my best advantage and I annoyed you, so that's not cool. Secondly, if the pumps are identical, I spent about $100 too much. That's not small change. Just FYI, I AGAIN called Hayward this morning (because I'm obsessed). Get this, they insist 100% that these two pumps are not identical. Whoever told me this is flat wrong, they said. The EE uses less power, period. I guess I could just choose to believe, even just to sleep better tonight than last, lol. Thanks again, I'm still just starting out and trying to be perfect is my curse.

I looked at the Inyopools data on those pumps, and merged it. You can see it here:
https://sites.google.com/site/poolfo...yward-super-ii

Look at the delta-efficiency column -- it's all over the place. Also, Inyopools SF (service factor) data doesn't match Hayward's SF data, here:
http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/lite...TSUPIIFR11.pdf

So all I'm really sure of, is that the data is not trustworthy. I don't know if it's been deliberately fudged, or whether someone's just been careless.

If you call Hayward again, ask them for the SF and amp draw numbers for your EE model pump, and for the corresponding Up-rate pump. If Inyo has misled you, you are entirely within your rights to ask for a fully paid return, based on the false data they supplied.

FYI, I believe you in that they are identical. Inyo is wrong on the amp draw, I believe. Hayward stated that the amp draw on these 2 pumps is identical. But, and this is what's weird, that nevertheless the EE is more efficient for other reasons that they could not very clearly explain. Same amp draw, different efficiency - is that even theoretically possible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by versstef1

Hayward stated that the amp draw on these 2 pumps is identical. But, and this is what's weird, that nevertheless the EE is more efficient for other reasons that they could not very clearly explain. Same amp draw, different efficiency - is that even theoretically possible?

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No, not possible.

I suspect that Hayward may be changing the product stream, and putting more efficient motors on the full rate pumps. But, how far along they are with this, I don't know. It may be plans; it may be happening; it may be wishful thinking. But, it's gone far enough to get into the level 1 tech scripts -- which is what you are hearing.

In most cases the up rated and full rated version of a pump have the same performance but in this case there is a slight difference. Although both the SP3010EECZ and a SP3010X15AX use the same wet end, the SP3010EECZ is using a high efficiency full rated motor where as the SP3010X15AX is using a standard efficiency up rated motor. The motor amp label rating on each motor is the maximum draw that a motor can support but it is NOT what the motor will actually draw when placed in the plumbing system. What Hayward may be referring to is the label AMP rating being the same on both motors which is possible and without seeing the labels myself, I can't confirm that.

But according to CEC measurements on both pumps, the high efficiency motor will actually draw about 5% less than the standard efficiency version of the same motor while delivering the same flow rate. So I think Hayward is misleading you on the actual amp draw of the motor.

Also, I have found that the Hayward reps are hit and miss. Some know a lot while others are clueless. You have to keep calling to get different reps before you find one that really knows what they are talking about.

When sizing a pump, it is better to compare head curves than it is to compare THP. The head curve determines the flow rate on the plumbing system. The motor is there to run the wet end and the motor label really doesn't give you all that much indication of how the pump will perform.

Thanks Mark;

Just to extend that a bit . . . let's take your pump, which Inyopools shows as pulling around 9 amps @ 230V, or about 2KW if it runs at that load point.

Since your in Florida, let's assume an 8hours/day run time for 6 months, and a 2 hour /day run time for winter months. That's 1825 hours per year, or 3650 KWH. At around $0.10 / kwh, annual operating cost will be $365, and your savings (with a 5% reduction in electrical usage) will be about $19 per year.

On the other hand with a 2 speed pump, running on low 12 hours/day and 6hours/day at 1/6 the current used on high, your runtime KW would be about 0.35KW, and your annual hours would be 2920. That works out to about 1,000 KWH/year for a savings of $265 per year . . . and a MUCH quieter pump.

Mark, thank you so much for the information. The distinction between max draw and actual draw is exactly what the reps were trying to explain to me. I just couldn't relay it well here, and I don't think I understood it anyway. You are right about the label amp draw being 18.6 on both of them. Mark, all that said, can I even be 100% sure that I can interchange these 2 pumps? The GPM is identical according to Hayward here http://www.hayward-pool.com/prd/In-G...1_14002__I.htm, but it doesn't appear that the head curve chart is totally 100% identical when you look at the actual chart - very close, slight differences. Seeing that I have this pump ordered and on the way, I'd rather not even put it in if there's a risk it's not strong enough. It'll be even harder to get rid of after installing it.

And all that said, Ben, this morning I woke up and wondered why the heck I wasn't listening to you about the 2-speed. Again, it was the "you need drawings" thing, i.e. just the fact that I don't have a trusted pool guy and didn't trust myself in doing it myself (even with forum help) to size the system right, especially with the 2-nd story solar panels. Also, that I just spent $100 on labor that was useless and he was going to put in this pump free of charge. Even my solar guy tried to dissuade me from going 2-speed, saying it's too complicated and you'd be running on high speed anyway most of the time, when using solar. In short, I was too lazy to bother, as I have a lot other things on my mind. THAT SAID, I woke up this morning and am reconsidering this now. Maybe I'll put the pump on Craig's List and if it sells, start all over...

Thanks again to y'all!

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Oh, and it's reading things like this that kept me from considering 2-speed:"WHAT ABOUT SOLAR SYSTEMS? When a pool has a solar system mounted on the roof, a two speed pump may not be the answer. This is because the rise to the roof creates 10 ft or more of static lift, and that number does not change when you put a pump in low speed and reduce the flow through the system. With a solar system, it is often better to use a smaller single speed pump, such as a 3/4 HP pump that will give you adequate lift at all times."

I am not entirely sure what data you are looking at but the data Ben showed, shows the two pumps as being identical. The charts are difficult to compare if they are not directly overlaid so I would go by the tables.

But I really wouldn't worry so much about pump sizing. You could go with a much smaller pump if you wanted and still have everything work fine. As an example, I have a 20k IG pool with solar on a two story house, a suction side cleaner all running on a 1/2 HP two speed pump. There really is no need for such a large pump. The small pumps do just fine. The flow rate is reduced only by a little but the power use is reduced by a lot.

Also, solar really doesn't need a large pump either. It is true that you will be running solar on high speed but about half the time my pump runs on low speed because I don't need the heat gain from solar so it is still nice to have and will still save lots of money.

I was looking at the Hayward table and charts. They do look identical on the table, but not on the chart. I will assume they are identical. I guess I'm seriously oversized is what you're saying. I should have probably done a lot more reading on pump sizing, but instead simply assumed what was there what was needed. I have only 10.5 gallon, a Hayward Pooll Vac Ultra, and 6 solar panels 2nd story. What I would need is a competent pool man locally, though, if I really wanted to redesign everything.

@Mark: if you'll look at my earlier post, I'd merged the 2 Inyo tables, and set them side by side on a Google sites page. Their data reports a higher efficiency motor in the EE pumps . . . but the data looks like it contains errors.

@Mark & Versteff: the reason I asked about a drawing, and also the presence of vacuum relief, is that if there is NO vacuum relief, than the solar system CAN be run on low, once it's primed' on high

Ben, how did you calculate delta efficiency? If you are using the columns labeled "Amp Draw", I don't believe they are actual measurements but instead are probably label ratings. I doubt Inyo did any measurements on those pumps. Also, the power draw of a pump is dependent on the plumbing it is attached to so there is no single power draw but a curve depending on operating point. The only data I trust for actual power draw of a pump is the CEC measurement data. For those pumps, they measured Curve-A and Curve-B. Curve-A is representative of 1.5" high head loss type of plumbing system and here is what they list as an operating point for each pump:

SP3010EECZ: 62 GPM, 1643 watts, 2.26 gallons/watt-hr

SP3010X15AX:62 GPM, 1725 watts, 2.16 gallons/watt-hr

I would believe these numbers over any other source.

Also, there are much better pumps than the Super II. I would look into the Whisperflo line of pumps if you want something that will produce about the same flow rate but with better efficiency. For the same Curve-A:

WFDS-24 & WFDS-3: 61 GPM, 1571 watts, 2.33 gallons/watt-hr

It all started because I wanted to save money by keeping my existing motor and put it back on when this one burns up... I only really needed a new housing, so that led me thinking it's cheaper to get a new pump and keep the motor. I was trying to think far ahead, but not far enough....

Hi there. I hope I'm not reviving a thread no one cares about, but I thought I should update you, as I received my pump today. A lot of what we discusses was wrong. It turns out Hayward gave me wrong answers, too. Only the Inyo chart I linked (and used to make my hasty purchase decision) was right after all. The pump I received is a SP3010EEAZ. 1 HP, SF 1.5, THP 1.5. The motor model is SP1610Z1BE. Max amps is 14.6/7.3 after all. Now, all the charts and tables say this will give me the same performance as the 1.5HP/1.0SF SP3010X15AZ (motor UST 1152; max amps 18.6/9.3) at a lower amp draw. In theory, wouldn't that save about 25% energy (that's what I thought when I pushed the "buy" button)? Anyway, no matter who I asked except Inyo said max amp draw was identical, and it's not. I'm going to email you pictures of the old and new motor labels. If I could have one more minute of your time, before I have it installed, I would appreciate it if you could confirm that I will be OK using this new pump and also whether I can still put my old motor back on later (if I still choose to do so.) Reason for asking is that there are 3 other numbers different on the label, and I don't know if they mean anything or not. First, the "kW" number is .75 on the new motor, not listed on old, but online found it might be 1.1. Second, the new motor says "CODE L", the old one "CODE H". And third, the new one says "Thermal Protected CET50ABN" and the old one "CET40ABM". Thanks, appreciate it, and hopefully contributed something by sharing the actual label!

Here's the rule I found on the AO Smith site: if the old motor's HP x it's Service Factor (SF) equals OR is less than the NEW motor's HP x SF, you're OK. If the new motor's multiple is LESS than the old motor's, you are NOT OK, and will need to replace the impeller.

Looking at the photos you sent, what I'm seeing is:
OLD => 1.5hp x 1.0 SF = 1.5
NEW => 1.0hp x 1.5 SF = 1.5

So, I think you'll be OK. About any of the other, I'm not sure.