Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
OK. That's a mess. Do this:
1. Tell me the EXACT product name on the 15 bottles of stuff you put in the pool.
2. Tell me the EXACT product you are calling alum -- I'm assuming you didn't buy a 100# bag of industrial aluminum sulfate. (Actual industrial alum is usually a coarse tan granular material.)
3. Tell me what COLOR the water is.
4. Start ignoring your pool store -- anybody that let you put 15 bottles of metal remover in a small pool is without a clue!
5. Turn your pump on, and leave it on. AND, turn your SWCG OFF and leave it off.
6. Get a cheap OTO chlorine test kit, use it, and tell me what you see.
7. As soon as you get a chance, open the filter, and make sure it's FULL of sand.
8. Order a K2006 ASAP; you can use the Amazon link in my signature if you like.
9. Use the bleach to keep your chlorine in the 3 - 5 ppm range. Dose in the evening.
10. Buy a 25# bag of DE powder. Add two cups -- only -- of DE to the skimmer. Then, go watch the returns, to see if the DE comes back into the pool, as a white stream (I hope your pool is clear enough for that). If it DOES come back, you'll need to repair your filter. If not, begin adding 2 - 4 cups of DE to your skimmer after each backwash. You'll lose the DE . . . and some of the gunk . . . each time your backwash.
11. Plan on this taking awhile (2 weeks?) to clear. If you get impatient, it's likely to get worse, so don't. (Our stock of quart bottles of P.O.P.* is out, so you'll need to fill your own!)
12. Send us the K2006 results, once you have them.
13. For now, do NOT put ANYTHING else in that pool, except bleach!
14. Draining and refilling would be faster, but do NOT do this on your own -- you can destroy your liner, or even your pool. If you want to do this, hire a pool company to do it for you.
* P.O.P. = Pool Owner Patience!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
One thing you mentioned was Fiber Clear. This is not (despite what the pool store may have told you) the same as DE. I bought Fiber Clear last year to improve my sand filtration, I saw no improvement. I did see big clumps of what looked like wet newspaper on my sand when I opened the sand filter to winterize it. I don't kinow if Fiber Clear really works as a DE replacement in a DE filter but (in my experience) it does not work the same way in a sand filter - it appears to attract itself and just forms big clumps.
When PoolDoc says to use DE, use DE not Fiber Clear.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BigDave
One thing you mentioned was Fiber Clear. This is not (despite what the pool store may have told you) the same as DE. I bought Fiber Clear last year to improve my sand filtration, I saw no improvement. I did see big clumps of what looked like wet newspaper on my sand when I opened the sand filter to winterize it. I don't kinow if Fiber Clear really works as a DE replacement in a DE filter but (in my experience) it does not work the same way in a sand filter - it appears to attract itself and just forms big clumps.
When PoolDoc says to use DE, use DE not Fiber Clear.
The fiberclear faq says this:
When I disassemble my filter to clean it, there is a gray gelatinous material that is difficult to remove. Why does this happen and how do I remove it from the filter?
This is usually the result of a non-compatible chemicals (clarifiers, phosphate removers, etc.) being added to the water. Fiber Clear is merely filtering those chemicals out of the water. Clarifiers, phosphate removers some types of algaecides or other types of sequestering agents should not be added to a Fiber Clear filter. If you inadvertently add them, you will need to disassemble the filter and clean it thoroughly according to the manufacturer's instructions. You can then add a fresh amount of Fiber Clear.
Not that I'm suggesting the stuff or anything...
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
None of the @#$%$ has ever been in my pool. Fiber Clear is the weirdest thing this pool has seen. It may be fine as a DE replacement in a DE filter I don't know. In my experience it didn't help in a sand filter and left me with chunks of newspaper delivered in a thunderstorm and run over by the car. Perhaps it is incompatible with the DHMO that I use in excess.
Sorry, wits, for the Hijack. Follow PoolDoc's advice. He will help you. POP is the one thing you can't overuse.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Everyone, thank you so much for your responses! Ben, answers to your questions are below:
1 - MetalFree
2 - Alum - Leslie's Pool Store Brand
3 - A solid baby blue
4 - I'm completely DONE with the pool store and their advice!
5 - The Filter has been running non stop for a week - i'll continue to let it run. I added 2 bottles of bleach last night after i posted this and this morning turned the SWCG to super-cholorinate - i'll turn it off when i get home tonight. Would you mind telling me why i need to turn off the SWCG, please? I have to know why so i can apply the knowledge in the future - I'm just special like that.
6 - OTO? Not sure what that is, but i did just replace the cheap one i had with Leslie's kit - made by Taylor
7 - I just emptied and replaced the sand in my sand filter with 300 lbs of sand the weekend of 3/24/12
8 - Ordering the k2006 once i finish this post
9 - OK
10 - i'll find the DE powder and do as instructed, BUT i can't see the returns, so i won't be able to tell if it's coming back out :(
I'm over $1,000 into this between MetalFree, Metal Remover, Alum and water. I failed to mention in the first post that the pool no longer has metal (but at this point how could it as i've pretty much emptied and refilled the thing so many times). I'll let you know the results of the chlorine from my cheap kit tonight. I'm assuming your thinking this is definitely the Alum and not algea, yes? Definitely makes sense, but it would have been so nice for it just to be algae. At this point, i'm definitely not opposed to emptying it, or having somebody else do it as by the time I backwash and refill to get rid of this stuff, I'm sure it'll cost me about the same. What's involved in emptying and refilling? I've always been told not to do it, i just don't know why or how it can damage it. Which route would you take? AND, how do I get this fiberclear out of my sand filter? Thanks again for your time!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Wit, I'm just gonna answer a couple of those questions and let Ben get the rest.
5 -- We don't suggest using a SWCG for super-chlorinating. Save the cell life and just use bleach for now.
6 -- OTO/Phenol Red kit is the cheap one you can pick up most anyplace that uses the red and yellow drops.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
At wits end
I'm over $1,000 into this between MetalFree, Metal Remover, Alum and water.
Wow! That's one of the worst cases of being 'pool-stored' I've heard of. I'm sorry!
OK. There's no easy way out of this. The "baby blue" means alum, not algae. You might still have some algae in the cracks and crannies, but not in the water.
So. Do this:
1. Call around, and get a price to drain and refill your pool, and open your filter and remove the Fiber Clear and top 2" of sand. The filter work will probably need to be done regardless. (If you did the sand yourself, you can get the Fiber Clear out yourself, too.)
2. Tell me what "Metal Remover" is -- what company, and the EXACT brand name. If it's HEDP based, and you've added much . . . you'll probably need to drain.
3. For now, maintain an adequate chlorine level using bleach and OTO -- if the OTO turns dark yellow, you're good to go.
4. Was the sand you put in the filter labeled as "filter sand"?
5. I talked with customer support at Natural Chemistry. Their "Metal Free" is just citric acid, so if there's chlorine in the pool, there's no citric acid left, since chlorine rapidly destroys citric acid.
6. The next step depends on the cost of draining and refilling; how long you're willing to wait for a clear pool, and whether you've added a lot of HEDP. If you haven't added HEDP (if "Metal Remover" isn't HEPD), or have added only a little . . . you can eventually clear the water up. But, if you've added a major overdose of HEDP . . . you'll need to drain and refill.
7. The reason you have to have a professional drain and refill for you, is that the liner is stretched into place using a vacuum (like a super shop-vac), and then held in place by the water. If you take the water out, the liner will contract, but because it's old, will tear when you try to refill. Also, if there's water in the ground -- it can accumulate under the liner, and cause problems. If you are on hillside, this won't be an issue, but if you are on level ground, it will be. You're only about 100 miles south of me, and the ground is too wet here to allow safe draining of a liner pool in a low flat area.
Sorry for all the problems.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Watermom, thank you!
Ben, thank you! And I'm sorry I've created this monster and then listened to the pool store! It got to the point where everything they said was against my better judgement, but I didn't know what else to do. Thank God I found The Pool Forum! You've helped me feel more hopeful, but know I still have a long road ahead of me.
OK, so i just got back from looking at the actual products I put in the pool. Also pulled the MSDS's on them.
1 - I talked to a pool contractor and they said they would not be responsible for draining and refilling the pool, but recommended it as well. They said if I drained it to 1" above the bottom step leaving at least a foot of water in the shallow end I should be OK. My pool is the "copenhagen" shape and is roughly 5 1/2 feet in the middle and 3 feet on each side - steps on both sides as well. It was put in July 2006. What are your thoughts on this? And do you think DE would be able to help filter what's left in the remaining one foot after I refill it? Worth a shot? Keep calling around?
2 - The "metal remover" I referred to is actually called Stain Remover, distributed by Leslie's Poolmart and it contains Ascorbic Acid - 99.1% and Inert Salts 0.9%.
4 - The Sand is #20 Silica Sand manufactured by Southern Filter Media, LLC. It too was purchased from Leslie's.
6 - I'm under the impression the HEPD was the telling factor on definitely drain the pool. I'm assuming Ascorbic Acid and HEPD are two totally different things and the AA may be easier to work with?????
I checked on DE at Leslie's while I was there. They have a 25lb bag for $25.99 (I didn't buy anything!) Manufacturer's Name is EaglePicher Filtration & Minerals, Inc., Chemical Name Diatomaceous Earth, Flux-Calcined, Trade Name Celatom. It's 100% DE and 35-50% Crystalline Silica.
Waiting to hear back from you before I do anything with the DE or the draining.
Thanks!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
You're right -- since the Metal Remover is ascorbic acid (vitamin C!), we don't have to worry about HEDP. (And, since you have chlorine, it's all gone, too.)
Your contractor knows your pool. Ask him again, and confirm that it's safe to drain as far as he said, and then do that -- NO FURTHER!
Since the mess is just alum, that will eventually filter out. Draining it partially should reduce the problem to a more manageable level. I'll call someone, and see if anything will speed that up.
Do go ahead and remove & replace the two 2" of your sand, which should also remove the Fiber Clear. And do remember you MUST keep your chlorine levels up during this entire process or you WILL have algae again!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
We emptied the pool to 6" in the shallow end this weekend which would leave around 2 1/2 feet in the deepest portion of the pool. Even at that level I really had to look for the main drain to find it......disturbing.
The pool is filling at the moment. Should be full around 7-9p.m. tonight.
I'll need to work on the water balance - chlorine, ph, alkalinity, cya, hardness, salt. Can you tell me where to begin at this point?
I did order and have received the K2006 kit.
We recalculated the pool and have come up with 14,000 gallons. It's 16 x 32 with steps on each end, 5 1/2 deep in the middle and 3 1/2 on each side. Would you agree with 14,000?
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
I came up with 15K, but you may be compensating for actual pool layout better than I am.
Anyhow, do this:
1. Turn your pump & filter on ASAP.
2. Add 1/2 gallon of 6% plain bleach each evening, till you get on a program.
3. Do NOT try to adjust anything else, EXCEPT pH, but even then only if the pH is >8.0 or <7.0.
4. Do a complete set of tests on your pool water, once the pool is full.
5. Do NOT turn on the SWCG, yet.
6. List what chemicals you still have, on hand.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
15k sounds more realistic than the 18k we initially thought it was, thanks.
OK, this might be a stupid question, but can I turn the pump on and run it if the water is not up to the return lines yet? (Obviously I'd keep the skimmer off until the water level got up to it)
I thought maybe I should backwash the filter one more time with the "cleaner" water before i started filtering ???????
I'll follow-up with a better description of the below once I check it all:
- 18-20 lbs of cya
- 10-12lbs hardness from Leslie's
- 30 - 50 lbs Bi-carb
- Heading to Walmart for Bleach and Borax at lunch.
- 25lb bag of DE.
Thank you!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PoolDoc
5. I talked with customer support at Natural Chemistry. Their "Metal Free" is just citric acid, so if there's chlorine in the pool, there's no citric acid left, since chlorine rapidly destroys citric acid.
Ben,
Unless the MSDS I have from natural Chemistry and the correspondence from them is wrong, Metal Free is basically EDTA (since they tout it as a 'phosphate free metal sequatrant). Their Stain Free product is ascorbic acid. I used to retail their products.
So much for their "customer support"!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BigDave
None of the @#$%$ has ever been in my pool. Fiber Clear is the weirdest thing this pool has seen. It may be fine as a DE replacement in a DE filter I don't know. In my experience it didn't help in a sand filter and left me with chunks of newspaper delivered in a thunderstorm and run over by the car. Perhaps it is incompatible with the DHMO that I use in excess.
Sorry, wits, for the Hijack. Follow PoolDoc's advice. He will help you. POP is the one thing you can't overuse.
Dave, have you ever added polyquat? It will react much the same with the cellulose fiber.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
No, WB, no polyquat. Water, Bleach, Borax, CYA, and a little Baking Soda... people and toys too. Started this pool new last year. The pool store that sold me the Fiber Clear intimated but wouldn't actually say that DE is illegal. I gave it a shot, I expected more. Perhaps my pump was too small to adequately backwash this stuff out of the 27" filter.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waterbear
Ben,
Unless the MSDS I have from natural Chemistry and the correspondence from them is wrong, Metal Free is basically EDTA
I don't have Natural Chemistry MSDS sheets, for the most part; would you mind sending me copies of the ones you have, so I can add them to the SwimmingPoolResearch files?
Once I publish all that, we'll have better info on most of the pool chemicals, than the 'support staff' do!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
At wits end
OK, this might be a stupid question, but can I turn the pump on and run it if the water is not up to the return lines yet? (Obviously I'd keep the skimmer off until the water level got up to it)
I thought maybe I should backwash the filter one more time with the "cleaner" water before i started filtering ???????
If you can get the pump to prime, and stay primed, it's OK to run the system. On most pools this means you have to have a main drain, AND a valve that allows you to cut off the skimmer, so you can pull water from the main drain alone.
If you can get it primed, backwashing would be fine.
Don't add the hardness or bicarb till later (and maybe, not ever). Don't add the CYA till you have the system running and circulating.
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
The pump did prime at lunch time yesterday so i was able to start the filter as I do have a separate valve on the skimmer. I also back washed it first to get rid of the water that was in the filter and to clean it. The pool looks good. Not sparkling, but I wouldn't say cloudy. I'm just thrilled to be able to see the bottom again, but now please help me make it sparkle!!!
I'm also amazed at the test results I pulled this morning considering the only thing we've put in there was a gallon of bleach. I know, I know, you told me 1/2 a gallon, but my husband said that wouldn't do anything, so I added the other half. No more listening to him when it comes to the pool, I promise!!! My readings are below:
FC = 14 ppm - did i do that right? (5 with my smaller Taylor kit)
CC = 2 (I get 2 with the smaller Taylor kit)
TC = 3
PH = 7.7
Alk = 80
Hardness = 50
CYA = less than 30 - I filled up the tube, but could always make out the dot
I don't know what to add first or how much and then at what point do I add salt, how much and when to turn it on.
Thanks for your help!
Re: Cloudy Water After Alum
If I understand you correctly, you have about 15 - 20 # of CYA on hand? If so, once your filter can run 2 - 3 days between backwashes, begin adding it slowly, via the skimmer. Add 3 - 5 lbs just AFTER each backwash. It's slow to dissolve, and will have to sit on your filter.
Once you do this, do not add ANY other chemicals via the skimmer, except bleach or borax. While there's CYA on top of the filter sand, add everything else directly to the pool . . . of course, there's really not much else you should be adding.
Check your CYA after backwashing, but before adding the next dose. You probably want to get to 80 ppm before your turn your SWCG on. Add bleach each evening, as needed, till you are ready to turn it on.
If you want your pool to 'sparkle' there's persistent evidence that 50+ ppm of borates will make a significant contribution to this. For your pool, that means about 12 boxes of borax, plus about 4 gallons of muriatic acid to lower the pH. If you lower your pH FIRST, and keep it low, you'll also lower your CARBONATE alkalinity at the same time, that you are increasing alkalinity from borates and cyanurates. The combination of low carbonate alkalinity and borates will reduce your pool's liklihood of getting algae. To add borates that way, add 1/2 of a bottle of muriatic at a time, till your pH goes below 7.0. Then, add a box of borax -- slowly through the skimmer -- each day, till it goes above 7.2 again. Then, add borax again, and so on, till all your borax is consumed. Once that's done, add enough additional borax to get your pH to 7.4 - 7.8. If you arrange your returns so they ruffle the surface, or even splash, you increase removal of carbonate alkalinity.
Now, this also means that you should NOT use the bicarbonate or sodium carbonate you have, since those increase carbonate alkalinity.
Just to be clear, TA = Total alkalinity = alkalinity from carbonates, borates, cyanurates, and possibly phosphates. Carbonate alkalinity refers exclusively to alkalinity from baking soda, washing soda, or carbon dioxide.
And read this post: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?13111 about using muriatic acid safely.
