New Pool SWG & other questions

New 41k+ plaster pool and I have a couple of questions and opinions to ask?

1We got a SWG and so far without shock we can't get it to produce chlorine levels higher than 1. I have a couple of issues, first the pool is over 41k gallons and the SWG is a Nature2 Fusion Soft 1400 which after reading directions has a maximum size of 40k gallons. Is this a material difference that I should require pool company to replace with one that is compatible with my size? Pool company states that as long as we don't have algae it doesn't matter if the chlorine reads 0 but we don't let algae grow and shock it once we see small black spots on the plaster. We did have a extremely high phosphate level and now got that under 100 and still can't get decent chlorine readings.We also note that it keeps going to "no flow" and just pulling the cartridge out gets it back to flow. Our hardness levels were low and there are no noticeable deposits.

The only levels we can't get correct other than chlorine yet are Ph and we've been adding a half gallon of muriatic acid ever week or more.

2.The pool company promised us a DE filter and put in a cartridge filter. We want DE as we had one in the past and had no issues and loved it. We are now told that they can't install the DE one until after we have final inspections as it requires some drain per code. They said we'd have to put this drain in if we wanted to follow code (nice ethics). Per our contract it says DE and it also says the pool had to be done in accordance with code but there is nothing of course in writing about who would be responsible for the DE drain system (the rep who sold us the pool no longer works there and she said it would be done but it's not specifically written) but now we believe they purposfully put the cartridge filter in and keep trying to convince us to keep it. We met another couple who told us they had a contract for DE and the same thing happened to them. As per the contract the filter is an integral part of the pool and for the DE filter to pass local code a drain is required so hence I would believe the pool company should pay. Thoughts?

3 a return has rocks or plaster peices in it about the size of a half pinky (a couple of pieces). The pool company says will dissolve on own and not to worry.

4. concrete was contracted through pool company with 3rd party. Concrete cracked immediately and is discolored and has rolling edges, sloppy repairs, yellow and dark discoloration (45 days later) and is dirty from plasters boots along with just sloppy workmanship. What would you do if you were in my shoes. They already tried to bleach the concrete and the pool company's guy said it was one of the worst jobs he's seen but I'm sure he wouldn't repeat that to his boss. I want the cracked and severely discolored blocks replaced but 1 is near filter basket and another is a corner. Of course they don't want to do anything. I can't believe they just want to fill it and nobody wants to clean it. They are blaming my loamy orange soil. Hello, they knew what soil i had and they also need to deliver me a clean finished product as i didn't buy a broken, cracked pool. Note they've been paid and the only $ I have is still the $250 for finals.

5. How much water can I expect to lose when the temps hit 100 degrees for 3 days? I have full sun. Would 3" be a lot?

Any help and opininions would be extremly nice. Note I did check the company out in advance and amazing still have a number of issues. Thank you in advance.

(Note we've been running the filter almost 24 hours for 3-4 days and 12-15 the other days.)

Hi maglib and welcome to the Pool Forum! Someone else with more installation/building type of knowledge will better be able to answer most of your questions, but I wanted to say hello and glad you found us. Also, instead of starting a new thread when you have more to add, just reply to this one. I moved your info made in your separate thread into this one for you.

Hope you enjoy the forum.

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Originally Posted by maglib

Pool company states that as long as we don't have algae it doesn't matter if the chlorine reads 0 but we don't let algae grow and shock it once we see small black spots on the plaster.

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BS. The pool company is full of it. Tell them to show you how to operate your SWCG to maintain an adequate (per mfg standards) chlorine level, or to replace with a unit that will work.

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The only levels we can't get correct other than chlorine yet are Ph and we've been adding a half gallon of muriatic acid ever week or more.

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Buy the chemicals, but let them demonstrate pH control for you, while they do the other.

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The pool company promised us a DE filter and put in a cartridge filter. We want DE as we had one in the past and had no issues and loved it. We are now told that they can't install the DE one until after we have final inspections as it requires some drain per code. They said we'd have to put this drain in if we wanted to follow code (nice ethics). Per our contract it says DE and it also says the pool had to be done in accordance with code but there is nothing of course in writing about who would be responsible for the DE drain system (the rep who sold us the pool no longer works there and she said it would be done but it's not specifically written)

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You've probably lost this one, unless you want to go to court. But check the code. All that may be required is a separation tank to keep DE from going down the drain, like this one:
http://store.poolcenter.com/pentair-...e-p158087.aspx

If you can afford the $400 hit, DE will give you better water quality.

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a return has rocks or plaster peices in it about the size of a half pinky (a couple of pieces). The pool company says will dissolve on own and not to worry.

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Get them to guarantee in writing that it will dissolve within 3 months, or that they will remove it.

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4. concrete was contracted through pool company with 3rd party. Concrete cracked immediately and is discolored and has rolling edges, sloppy repairs, yellow and dark discoloration (45 days later) and is dirty from plasters boots along with just sloppy workmanship. What would you do if you were in my shoes. They already tried to bleach the concrete and the pool company's guy said it was one of the worst jobs he's seen but I'm sure he wouldn't repeat that to his boss. I want the cracked and severely discolored blocks replaced but 1 is near filter basket and another is a corner. Of course they don't want to do anything. I can't believe they just want to fill it and nobody wants to clean it. They are blaming my loamy orange soil. Hello, they knew what soil i had and they also need to deliver me a clean finished product as i didn't buy a broken, cracked pool. Note they've been paid and the only $ I have is still the $250 for finals.

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Talk to a lawyer. You may need one. Concrete that's bad now, will tend to be worse later.

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How much water can I expect to lose when the temps hit 100 degrees for 3 days? I have full sun. Would 3" be a lot?

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Yes. Do a bucket test:
Get a five gallon bucked and fill it with 4 gallons of water. Mark the water level in the bucket AND the pool. Put it in the pool, on the steps or suspended with a rope so the bucket water temp = pool water temp. Take pictures and get your neighbor or friend to witness. Wait 3 days, and compare.

If the water level drop in the bucket = the drop in the pool, it's evap. If not, have them fix the leaks OR talk to the lawyer.

Actually, given all the issues, you may want to talk to a lawyer NOW, just to make sure you preserve all your rights in case you have to sue. If you have the lawyer write some sort of letter requesting some paper or other "so my client can preserve his rights to make legal claims", your builder may put you at the top of his TO-DO list. And, given the issues you describe, he may be on his way out, so act quickly. One of the symptoms of a good contractor going belly up are some of the problems you describe. If this is happening, being at the FIRST of the line, you may be able to get some stuff resolved. It sort of depends on whether he's a good guy going under or a bad guy. But, do NOT assume he's acting out of bad will.

Thank you for the responses. Do you know what type of lawyer I should look for? My lawyer is a finance guy and charges obscene rates and i'm assuming a local lawyer could handle this.

I also can tell you that the pool company has a number of jobs and doesn't appear to be going out of business at all. Amazingly they did a number of pools i've seen and they didn't have the same problems. I also know they all went with cartridge (other than 1 who went with DE and the pool company did the same thing with them on switching it after inspections and telling them cartridge was better, cancer stuff, etc), didn't have a lot of concrete and they all had more typical black soil.....

Can't really help with lawyer recommendations. So far in life, I've been fortunate enough to not have had one. I've been ripped off a few times by customers, but so far they all had better lawyers than I'd ever be able to afford, and the losses were $10,000 in the worst case, so it wasn't worthy calling one. In your case, however, a lawyer may be able to help you make sure you're first in line when the claims start, but that's ONLY a guess.

Ben

Okay, got another question for you....
Along with the SWG we have a mineral cartridge and the pool guy is telling us we don't need free chlorine higher than .5
Here are my water analysis:
FAC = 2 they say .5 is enough due to mineral cartridge
TAC = 2 " " "
PH=8 we've been adding half gallon of muriatic acid in deep end weekly with no help. They said to use dry acid as the Muriatic drops TA which raises PH again.... dry acid is much more expensive and Alk up is cheap baking soda... Thoughts?
TA=100 he said he wants us closer to 120
CYA=40 they said to add more and get to 80
calcium hardness=200 said try to get to 250-300
Salt = 3200 exactly where we want to be
iron = none
Phosphates = >1000 we put in phosfree and then didn't clean filters so we are trying again. Note we did have small black dots on the new plaster that when we used the Phos Free disappeared but the SWG wasn't working so it may have been due to the bad sensors on the SWG not producing chlorine.

Pool is crystal clear otherwise.

How does this site make money? Just advertisers?

(deleted remark that can get me in trouble with Google. PoolDoc)

Thanks

Hi maglib,
just wanted to make a few comments..

1. A FC of .5 is NOT enough to keep the pool clean and sanitary to swim in, regardless of what the pool people say. The mineral pack may be able to help combat algae with a very low chlorine level, but it will not do anything for bacteria and viruses, which need the chlorine to kill them off.

2. Dry acid and muriatic acid accomplish the same goal--they lower pH and TA at the same time, which is a good thing. You'll find that your pH will be more stable if you keep your TA lower--I think the SWCG experts recommend somewhere in the 80 range.

3. Your CYA does need to come up some--it will help keep the chlorine in rhe pool, and most say that the SWCG cell life is longest and the unit works at its most efficient with the CYA at the manufacturer recommended level, which is usually around 80 ppm.

4. Your calcium levels should be in the 200-400 range, so bumping up to 250-300 would be okay.

5. Phosphate removers are usually not needed, and just a way to drain a little extra money from your wallet by scaring you into thinking that you'll have a pool full of algae if you don't buy it....don't buy it!! Proper chlorination will keep the pool algae free.

6. This site makes money through the Google ads, and by people subscribing.

Hope this helps!

Janet

Thanks again. So where would you recomend I keep my chlorine levels at?
With 41k gallons the pool is expensive and I wish I had read about the BBB method first.

Why would I get small black spots in my plaster if the chlorine is at 2 like it is and I have the SWG and the mineral cartridge? Scrubbing them out didn't work and neither did superchlorinate. When I added the phosfree I did get them to dissipate but I didn't clean filters so the phosphate levels went way back up off the charts and the black spots came back. They are small, some the size of a pencil point and a couple the width of your pinky with most the width of an eraser. Most are in our ledge where we do have jets.

I love this site.

I'll let Pooldoc or one of the SWCG experts give you that answer, but I believe the recommended chlorine level is 5% of your CYA level. So with a CYA of 80, I think you need to keep your chlorine around 4 ppm.

I don't know what to tell you about the black spots..but I will see if Pooldoc can take another look at the thread, and maybe he can offer a suggestion.

Janet

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Originally Posted by maglib

Thanks again. So where would you recomend I keep my chlorine levels at?

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You need to follow the Best Guess chart . . . which means your correct FC levels are determined by your CYA level. Keep in mind that if your CYA level is below 40, you'll have high chlorine loss to sunlight.

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Why would I get small black spots in my plaster if the chlorine is at 2 like it is and I have the SWG and the mineral cartridge?

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Your spots could be:
#1 - black algae, OR
#2 - copper oxide staining on some element in the pool coat, OR
#3 - something else.

To test for black algae: get a plain uncolored toothpick -- preferably flat -- and scrape off a bit of the black spot. If you can not do so -- it's not black algae. Smear the bit you scraped off on a white piece of paper -- a 3 x 5 card is perfect, then use a knife or spoon to spread it out. Black algae, spread thin, will be dark green. If it's any other color, it's not black algae.

To test for copper stains: put a vitamin C tablet on one of the stains. If the vitamin C lightens the spot, it's probably copper.

If both tests fail, we'll have to re-think.

But you seem to have some misconceptions about your equipment:

+ Most 'mineral' units do nothing. Those that 'work' add enough copper to cause staining. A few still include silver, which WILL cause black stains, but usually not localized ones.

+ Contrary to what many people think, a salt system (SWCG => Salt Water Chlorine Generator) is nothing more than a way to add chlorine to your pool. With an SWCG, an electrical current is passed through a solution (pool water) containing sufficient salt (chloride - Cl-) so that chlorine (Cl+) can be generated.

+ Phosphate removers are occasionally helpful, always messy, but never essential.

+ Adequate chlorine levels MUST be determined by the Best Guess chart, which sets chlorine level based on CYA level.

+ To PREVENT black algae, simply maintaining correct chlorine levels, per the BG chart is enough.

+ To CONTROL black algae, once established, it's necessary to maintain shock levels (BG chart again) for long periods of time AND to brush the areas where algae appears.

+ To ERADICATE black algae -- on concrete pools -- usually requires draining the pool.

You can't scrape it, it looks like it's actually part of the plaster.
The vitamin C did nothing either.

When weather changes I'll try to get some pictures. It looks like more spots every day. We had a lot of rain recently.

Can I not replace the ozonator and just keep using the SWCG? Seems I really don't like the idea of the metals in an ozonator and when my chlorine levels are low as they say they can be, I get all types of frogs in my filters and other bugs. When I maintain chlorine over 2.0 I don't have a problem with the creatures as much.

I contacted the company of the system asking about the fact that my pool is over the 40k limit and they never responded. I think I'll call.

I'm going to call pool company about possibly getting a lawyer regarding the concrete, possibly the SWG being too small, and the DE filter not being in accordance with town requirements.

Thanks for all ou help.

I can't see my reply I guess because I'm new otherwise I'd edit last message.
I checked the Best guess chart and what I don't understand is the accuracy of this when using a SWCG and mineral cartridge.

Since I was told to get my CYA up to 80 but my chlorine levels need to be only .5 since I have the mineral cartridge. On our own we're getting them to between 1-2 but this chart tells us they need to be even higher.

I can't remove the mineral cartridge as there is nothing to cap it.

Appreciation once again.

Pictures of everything would help. If you take them, send them -- full size! -- to poolforum AT gmail DOT com or poolforum.pics AT gmail DOT com.

We don't have recommended chlorine levels IF you actually have metals (Cu &/or Ag) in your pool water. Mineral cartridges come in two types: those that are worthless, because they do nothing, and those that are WORSE than worthless because they put uncontrolled and unpredictable amounts of metals in your water.

I'm you might try Iron Out, but I'm not sure that it would remove silver, if that's what the stain is.

If you can report models and mfgs on the mineral unit and the ozone unit that would help.

Ben

What you need is a lawyer who does litigation. If you give Ben permission to give me your eMail address, I can contact you off-line and see what we can find. We have almost as many lawyers in NJ as we have diners, and badly marked roads! It also depends on where you are in the Garden State. I personally know lawyers who do criminal (like traffic or worse), real estate, personal estates and wills, adoptions, and labor law. But a lawyer who sues someone for you for non-performance of a contract (or defends you against it) is not one I've yet had to use. However, they aren't hard to find.

Unfortunately, I think it's messy. They didn't install the DE filter and didn't install the code drain for it. They installed an inadequate SWCG and stuck you with a Nature2 attachment (did you actually agree to Nature2?). The concrete deck is cracking and stained. The pool surfaces is stained. And the chemical advice they are giving you is (mostly) wrong and will cause algae.

Carl

I called pool company and basically left them message that I can't believe nobody has come to look at concrete, that it takes a month to cure and they have to still install the loop loc cover (the pool com owes us a cover still) along with the DE filter. I also said if we didn't hear back we didn't want to but would have to speak with our lawyer. Well they didn't call back. So i'm hiring a lawyer easy win as they still didn't put DE filter in and the concrete wasn't done in accordance with code (rolling edges, stains from bad mix are easy, the cracks immediately). So if I can send you my info, please let me know of a good lawyer. Of course we have to remediate first.......

MY PC won't let me attach camera as I'm having USB ports issue (HP issue) so I'm going to get my son to take pics. You can't scrape the black off at all, vitamin C did nothing. I have less than 200ppb of phospates so it shouldn't be algae. Iron test showed nothing. Can't figure it out other than maybe bad mix of plaster and it's the garbage coming through.

Another question. Phos Free was used to get rid of phosphates and we have cartridge filter. We cleaned filter after using phos free and there wasn't anything that we saw on the filter. Now if we do the weekly dosage (I know we don't have to but I don't want pool company to have any excuses) do we have to clean and pull cartridges out every week?

Thanks.

Hi Maglib;

A caution and a question:

Do you want me to send Carl your email address, so he can give you the names of some attorneys?

* and *

Be CAREFUL -- if you are getting a lawyer involved, do NOT follow our chemical advice. Follow your pool company's advice! It doesn't matter whether it works or not; what matters is what you said, and that's not giving them an excuse!

The "BBB Method" works . . . but it is NOT pool industry standard (which often doesn't work!) and you need to follow the 'recognized standards' OR your dealer / builder's instructions.

So don't even ASK us how to do your chemistry -- our way is NOT the right way under the circumstances.

In fact, for now it would probably be in your best interest to stay off the forum, except to get Carl's info, or suggestions about how to proceed with your case. I hope you'll come back once things are settled, but for your sake, you don't want our chemical advice right now.

Good luck!

Ben

Thankfully I've listened to pool company so far and I've done everything they said other than the ph won't come down. We had a ton of rain so now working on getting chemicals back in sync we had to drain over 4 inches at least when the storm hit and possibly 7, just ran it out for over 12 hours. My FC has never been over 1 and I have every test done by 3rd parties.

Give him my email address as I've got to proceed unless i want to be stuck with ugly cracking concrete and possibly bad plaster work. Wish they would just do it right the first time or follow up. I'm not one to hire an attorney but I'm also not going to be stuck with garbage in my yard costing me obscene money to fix.

Will still send pictures but I went out there and one thing I noticed was that some of the black felt like actually small pieces of wood or metal that can be scratched out of the plaster. Most just looks like stains, some real small and others about 1cm wide. When they come to replace filter i'll ask about it again.I'm starting to feel it was in the plaster mix and just coming up as the plaster cures.

We've got a Nature 2 fusion soft system. Wish we found this site and did research better but we all make mistakes believing what we read and the salesperson....

You may be right they might read the forum as surprises arose today that they're coming to replace the filter although they still refuse to do it in accordance with code saying the tank is our responsibility.

Amazing that the pool company doesnt want to keep customers happy and do things right. All I want is a pool in accordance with code and agreement and concrete that's clean and not cracked and done in accordance with code. I guess that's too much to ask. Isn't it easier and more profitable to do things right the first time and not rush? If they don't fix it, I'll do a come check out my pool on different opinion web sites for both concrete and pools and let people see/read what they may not want.

Thanks everyone. I am very much obliged by all the help. I hope and pray that I don't end up having to fight for what should be done but I will if they force it. The BBB is only a first step.

Take care all.

I've emailed Carl.

Good luck. Hope we see you here again, after all this is resolved.

Ben