cloudy pool please help

Hi,
I spent time yesterday reading your forum. Pool has been cloudy since a big pool party a week ago. After the party we cleaned the cartridge filter but (told ok to do by pool company) left the filter in the container. The dirty water backwashed into the pool(our mistake not realizing we should waste it). Cloudy ever since. Took forum's advice and checked with Taylor test kit last night. Very low ph and alkalinity so added soda ash and sodioum bicarb(had it on hand. This am the numbers are:

ph 7.4
alkalinity 120
FC16.5
CC .5
CYA 120

(calcium hardness was fine last night.)

It is still very cloudy. We had added two rounds of improve polysheen blue over 72 hrs which did nothing. It's a big pool, 48,000 gallons.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Mary

ps we also coated the filter with sparkle up on advice from the pool store which did nothing so we cleaned the filter(took it out) two days ago.

Hi, and welcome to the forum!!

I assume this is a vinyl pool, and I also assume that you're using trichlor pucks for chlorination? I say this because your CYA is so high and your pH was so low--both side effects of trichlor. Honestly, your CYa level is so high that I'm surprised that you're able to keep the pool algae free at this point. You can do it, by keeping your chlorine above 8 ppm at all times, but if you can, it would be worth draining/refilling abiout 1/2 of your water to get the CYA down to a manageable level.

On to your question, though--I would try first shocking the pool, using bleach or liquid chlorine. This is going to mean taking the chlorine up to 25 ppm and holding it there by testing/adding more bleach to get back up to 25. You hold it there until 1)the pool starts to clear, 2)you have zero combined chlorine, and 3)you don't lose any chlorine when testing at sundown and again at sunup. If the cloudiness you're seeing is a precursor to an algae bloom, that will take care of it. Keep the filter on 24/7 and clean the cartridge as your pressure indicates. Even if the cloudy isn't impending algae in the water, it never hurts to give the pool a good shocking after a large party.

What is your calcium hardness level? Do you use any cal-hypo products?

If shocking the water doesn't help, and it's truly just the backwash from the filter, then you might want to try a flocculant, which is designed to make the little fine particles stick together into bigger particles that can be caught by the filter or sink to the bottom to be vac'd up. I am normally not a proponent of flocs/clarifiers, but this year when I started up my new filter without backwashing the dust off the sand first, a very similar thing happened to me, and it took a bottle of clarifier and a couple of days (and a LOT of vacuuming) to get it cleared up.

Hope this helps!

Janet

One tweak ----- A clarifier will make small particles clump into bigger particles so the filter can remove them more efficiently. A floc makes these particles clump into much bigger particles that will settle to the bottom of the pool and are then vacummed to waste (not possible with cartridge filters and some DE filters). So, if shocking and holding it at the high cl level for a few days (along with running the pump 24/7 as Jan said) doesn't do the trick, you might try a clarifier, not a floc. (But, I wouldn't be in a hurry to try it. Give the high chlorine and just the filtration system on your pool time to handle it.

BTW -- It usually isn't a good idea to add a bunch of stuff to try and fix a problem in a pool. Pool stores love to sell you tons of stuff and pool owners who are having trouble are usually quite impatient and frustrated and willing to try anything the pool store suggests. Usually, nothing more than chlorine and patience will solve many problems.

Welcome to the forum!

Hi Janet,

Thanks for your advice. We will shock it today and keep the chlorine level up.

The calcium hardness level was 160. We don't use any products besides the chlorine. Yes, we have been using the trichlor pucks and have now turned off the chlorinator.

The pool is actually concrete.

My husband and I think since we need to get the CYA down anyway that we will just start emptying. I think running a hose into it while it's emptying is counterproductive.

We did try the flocculent twice over 72 hours and there was no change.

Appreciate your thoughts.
Mary

Good idea doing a partial drain and refill. A lower CYA will make your pool much easier to manage. No more triclor tabs or dichlor shock powder. They are both stabilized and will add CYA. Since this is a concrete pool, once you get the cloudy water cleared up you might want to try using cal-hypo for your source of chlorine for awhile. It is recommnended that concrete pools have a calcium hardness reading between 200-400.

Hi! and Welcome! You've gotten excellent advice (as usual from Jan and Lisa). I don't have much to add except:

Personally, I'm biased against flocs and clarifiers. The only one of the latter I like is also the only algaecide we recommend, Polyquat 60%. But I would NOT recommend it if you are going to drain and refill until after you've drained, or you'll just be pouring...down the drain.

But, unless you are vacuuming to waste, after you refill it's fine to add Polyquat 60%. It will tend to push your chlorine level down for 24-48 hours but it will inhibit new algae growth and acts as a clarifier as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mary eaton

Hi,
Very low ph and alkalinity so added soda ash and sodioum bicarb(had it on hand.
Low pH and TA and high CYA, you are using trichlor and have a cartridge filter, right? Trichlor and carts do not play well together and lead to an overstabilized pool in just a few short months!
This am the numbers are:

ph 7.4
alkalinity 120
FC16.5
IF your CYA is over 100 this is not high enough to clear the pool, bring it up to a minimum of 25 ppm! (up to 30 ppm)
CC .5
CYA 120
How did you get this reading of 120 ppm for the CYA. YOU said you used a Taylor kit but they cannot measure over 100 ppm because, if you look at the markings on the CYA tube, the graduations are not linear and over 100 ppm they are so close as to be unreadable. If you 'guestimated' the reading it is probably MUCH higher than 120 ppm.
(calcium hardness was fine last night.)
A hint to make it easier to help you with your pool, "fine" is not a test reading, nor is "OK" or "in range". We need numbers!;)
It is still very cloudy.
IF you CH was very high and you added soda ash and baking soda this could add to the cloudiness by precipitating out calcium carbonate. This is why we need numbers!;)
We had added two rounds of improve polysheen blue over 72 hrs which did nothing. It's a big pool, 48,000 gallons.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Mary

ps we also coated the filter with sparkle up on advice from the pool store which did nothing so we cleaned the filter(took it out) two days ago.

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You took out the sparkle up but put the cart back in the filter, right? You should be running the pump 24/7 and filtering until the pool is clear and the problem solved.

Be careful with the clarifiers. Overdosing on them can actually make the pool cloudier and stay that way because, instead of clumping it makes a collodial suspension (one that does not filter out!)

A bit more info about your pool would be useful such as make and model of filter and pump and any other equipment you might have.


I almost forgot the most important thing...:eek:

Welcome to the forum, you found the best place to get help with your pool!:);)

My husband is happy to have a game plan("I told you we should drain the pool!")

Yes, we put the cartridge back in.

More pool details:

concrete reinforced fiber glass wall with a steel mesh reinforced floor installed in 2003

Filter: Sta-Rite Series III 450
Natural Gas Heater: replaced this year Sta Rite 400 btu/hr
AO Smith Replacement Motor 1.5 HP (replaced 2008)
PB 4 Booster Pump
Hayward Chlorine Feeder CL 220(Replaced 2006)

Nature 2 Cartridges
Polaris
Pool was painted one coat 2007

He is shocking the remaining water now. Will keep you informed. thanks

Just wanted to note that I am usually against the use of flocs/clarifiers myself, but having had a messed-up pool from filter blow-back for almost 3 weeks that no amount of vacuuming/shocking would fix, the clarifier I used was a last resort. The problem I had at the time was that the stuff was too fine for any filtering to get it out. So--that's why I suggest that you try the shocking first, to eliminate the possibility of algae. If shocking doesn't change anything, and your other numbers remain in line, then it might take a clarifier to remove the reallly fine stuff from the pool.

That being said, I agree with Carl in that if you're going to drain the pool, go ahead and do that before adding anything else to it.

Janet

Ok we drained over half of the pool and are filling it now. It still has a few thousand more gallons to go but my husband wanted the chemicals checked.

ph is 7.4
FC 22
cc 0
CYA 65
TA 220

So now the TA is really high. Hubby wants to sit tight until pool is filled and see what happens. He did add chlorine again. (this am FC was over 30) I read about the murantic acid/aeration method. Husband doesn't want to be chasing our tail as I am sure we made the TA high adding the soda ash and sodium bicarbonate.

Like your situation, Janet, the flocculant we added did nothing. The bottom is perfectly clean so the particles were suspended although looking fairly clear so far with the new water diluting them.

Thanks, Mary

It's generally a bad idea to add both soda ash AND baking soda. Usually, if you want to raise pH and TA you either add Borax and baking soda, or just soda ash, because the latter increases TA levels for any pH level.

BTW, Arm&Hammer Washing Soda in the yellow box in the detergent section of your supermarket is soda ash--exactly the same stuff the pool stores sell.

You may find with such a high TA you have trouble keeping your pH down, and you'll have to lower it just by lowering your pH.

We added 7 lb of sodium bisulfate last night.

today's readings:

ph 7.6
TA 175
FC 17
CC 0

Should we add more acid? Let the chlorine float down now? What is a swimmable level of chlorine?

The pool is much clearer than before our backwash but not as clear as before the ill fated party.

Should we ever go back to the pucks? If not do we check the chlorine like every day? We typically give 4 gallons of chlorine(12.5% sodium hypochlorite) so is the bleach the same amount?

Thanks for your advice-it's made a big difference. Mary

With a CC reading of 0, your on the right track. Since the water is still somewhat cloudy, I'd probably go ahead and maintain the high cl level for another day and run the pump 24/7. If you still show a CC of 0 tomorrow, and if you don't lose more than 1ppm of chlorine from sundown tonight until sunup tomorrow, then you can go ahead and let the cl drift down. With a CYA of 65, you want to keep the cl level between 5-10 all the time. If you drop below 5, you'll risk an algae bloom.

I would not use any more trichlor pucks. They have CYA in them and your level is high enough. Yes, to checking your chlorine level (and pH level) daily. Regular bleach is 6% sodium hypochlorite so it will take more bleach than pool store chlorine to get the same amount of chlorine.)

Work on lowering the alk. Take a look at the following thread.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191

Hope this helps. (BTW -- I deleted your other post since it was essentially the same as this one. If you post and it doesn't show up immediately, it means it is in the moderation queue waiting for one of us to mod it in.)

Ok, got it. I think we are now on the right track so we will follow the protocol on your link for getting the alkalinity down. Thanks so much you've all been a great help.
Mary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mary eaton

Hayward Chlorine Feeder CL 220(Replaced 2006)
If you continue to use this you will have the CYA problem again, especially if your System three is a cartridge or DE model and not a sand filter.
Nature 2 Cartridges
This is putting copper in your water. Copper is what stains pools and turns hair green. It IS an effective algaecide so the water doesn't turn green readily but, as you found out, it does nothing to prevent it turning cloudy. You are spending about $200 a year on carts for it and it realy doesn't do that much.

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Hope this is helpful.

ok I am back with more cloudiness. This am
FC 7
CC 0
ph 7.6
Alk 200
CH 130
CYA 85 (not using pucks anymore)

We have not run the Polaris (not fitting into the outflow for some reason), nor have we vacuumed (can't see bottom) The filter pressure is 18 which the usual. My husband thinks we need new filters but they don't seem that friable. I know we need to get the alkalinity down. Is there anything else you could recommend? Is there a particular flocculant that works better?
Thanks, Mary

Had your pool cleared up and now become cloudy again or has it been cloudy all along? What all have you added to the pool recently? What has your pool care regimen been recently? Why has the alk gone up? Did you follow the alk lowering instructions posted earlier? We need some additional info to be able to help.

Hi. It never cleared all the way but improved-now it's as bad as before. We have added chlorine regularly and the FC has always been 5-10. CC on one occasion was .5 but most of the time zero. We added some sodium bisulfate and that brought the alkalinity down some but it has never been within range. We stopped the pucks/chlorinator. The filter runs 24/7. Mary

Is the filter pressure rising at all? Can you see any debris blowing back from the returns? Keeping in mind that the filter is the key to clearing up whatever is making it cloudy, if your filter pressure isn't rising at all, I would first try a new cartridge and see if you get any result from that. If that doesn't work, and you're sure that the issue isn't algae-related (to be sure, try testing your water at night and then again in the morning before the sun hits the pool--if your chlorine loss is less than 1 ppm, then you can pretty much rule out an algae problem), then the only thing I know to do is to try a clarifier. Note that in other posts in this thread I consider using a floc/clarifier only after everything else has been tried and failed, but that's what kept me from having to drain/refill my pool after the filter startup catastrophe. The one I used was a Natural Chemistry product called Clear and Perfect, and is supposed to be concentrated. I used a couple of ounces more than the label dose one afternoon, left the filter running all night, and by the next morning there was a very, very distinct difference in the clarity. I also noted that my filter pressure was rising, which told me that it was starting to filter out some of the junk. I added the label dose again that afternoon, kept the pump running, and by the next morning it was crystal clear and has been ever since. Here's the thread and the resulting discussion on clarifiers, if you want to check it out. http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9373

Janet