Bromine Chemistry Question

Just to make absolutely sure I STAY on track, my plan is:

1.) Keep pH between 7.4-7.6

2.) Keep FC between 1.5-2.0 with dichlor until CYA reaches 30

3.) Don't use the CuLators, HEDP, or Kem-Tek algaecide

4.) Don't dose with cal-hypo/borax

5.) Don't raise borates yet

When do I know it is time to use stuff in 3) & 4) ? You gave me directions for all of them but I really don't know WHEN to use them (other than no borates until I think there is not too much metal in the water) I just need clarification about timing ie. one reply says CuLators now, another says wait. Again, it is my fault that I got things so out of order, sorry.

Do #1 & #2.

Go ahead and use the CuLator units -- it won't hurt them to do so, as long as they don't get goo-ey. Plus they act very slowly, so the more they are in the pool, the better.

Let's stick with that for the next week at least. Don't over-test CYA; you'll run out of reagent. Let me know if you see any staining occurring.

I'll try to get your pics posted tomorrow.

Perfectly understood, thanks.
If no staining, talk to you next week.
Happy Memorial Day! No swimming for us with no heater. Boohoo.

Made it through the week! I hope you had a great holiday weekend celebrating our veterans and being with family. I went to Virginia to pick up my son from college and on our way home we visited several historical sites including the Flight 93 Memorial. 41 heroes died that day in PA; 40 adults and one yet-to-be-born person. Anyway....

Currently my numbers are:
FC: 2.0 (it was tested while I was gone and varied from 1.5 to 2.5 only)
CC: <0.5
pH: 7.4
TA: 100
CH: 60 (did this twice so I am sure, hmmmm)
CYA: did not test. My best guess is 20-25. I only added 2-1/2C dichlor all week so I am saving reagents.
STAINING: Most of the week I had an orange mottling on the steps but just slightly darker than right after the ascorbic acid scrub. However, yesterday, in 75 degree water temps, the boys dove in! When their waves hit the steps, I could clearly see an orange water line on the stairs as the waves fell below it (white above, solid light-orange below). This staining is not visible otherwise. I just installed the 1.5 ppm Spring Opener CuLator packs tonight in both skimmers; I only received them today and there were only two in my order????

What do you suggest I do next?

BTW, I have on hand:
25+ lbs. granular dichlor (99% Sam's Club)
11 lbs. cal-hypo (68% In-The-Swim)
3 G 12.5% bleach
8 121oz. 8.25% bleach
5 lbs. sodium carbonate
2 lbs. sodium bicarbonate
76 oz. (1 box) borax
2 G 31.45% muriatic acid
4 qts. polyquat (Kem-Tek 60% algaecide)
1 qt. 60% HEDP (Jack's Magic Pink Stuff)
25 LaMotte borate test-strips
DE 20+ lbs.
2 skimmer socks

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Hey. Thank you again for all your help getting my CHLORINE pool up and running!!!

My pool is doing well. I did a little more ascorbic acid scrubbing on the stairs and they look good. My CYA is not yet at 30 but it's closer than my post last week. I have hardly had to add any dichlor so it's a slow-go to raise CYA...with a broken heater it's too cold to swim much.)

I still want to add borates. Since I'm not sure when you were going to recommend that, I went ahead and did a metals bucket test. (I only did pool water at this point as I only wanted to buy one bucket. I will test my fill water after I am done with the pool water. I haven't had to use the hose to fill.)

Anyway, here are my results:

6.) Wait 15 minutes, and note any color change. None

10.) After 24 hours, inspect. Note clarity, color and sediment, if any visible Still clear, no color, no sediment

11.) After 24 *more* hours, inspect. Note clarity, color and sediment, if any visible Still clear, no color, no sediment. I even put my arm in there and swiped the bottom of the bucket and it is squeaky clean.

12.) Test both buckets for chlorine levels with OTO. You should not get a 'normal' reading, but report resultant color. Color with OTO was weird. It was kind of clear in the background with orange-red specks floating in it. I shook it vigorously and the background did turn orange-ish but the specks never disappeared. I think the background would have returned to clear after shaking but the fumes started to bother me so I pitched the sample.

I am now waiting the additional three days as per: 14.) Recover the buckets, and wait 3 days, and check again.

Sounds like your metal free!

You do understand that borates make your pool more resistant to algae, but don't guarantee and algae free pool?

Assuming that you do, for a 30k gallon pool, you'll need about 23 boxes of borax (~$4 each) and 8 gallons of 31% muriatic acid (~$8 each), so the total cost would be $160. It is a permanent addition, except for leaks, backwashing and splashout.

Or you could use 72 pounds of boric acid. At DudaDiesel this is $65 for 55 pounds plus $45 for 25 pounds plus shipping for the 55 pounds so $110 plus shipping (or 3 25 pounds would be $135 with free shipping). AAA Chemical has $60 for 50 pounds so $120 for 100 pounds plus shipping. The Chemistry Store has $89.10 for 55 pounds and $27.75 for 15 pounds so that's $117 for 70 pounds plus shipping.

Personally, I find using boric acid to be a lot easier since it's just one chemical to add. It didn't used to be as inexpensive as Borax plus acid, but these days it's a lot closer and I think a lot more convenient. Be sure to get granular and not powdered -- the powdered version tends to sit on top of the pool. The granular still dissolves very quickly and is gone with some light brushing. The effect on pH only drops it from 7.5 to around 7.2 when you add 50 ppm borates (the quantities above).

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Great news!!!!

Thank you so much for all the help you have given me and others here on the forum. You are truly amazingly generous people to donate so much of your time and energy to us all. In my case: special, special thanks to Ben! Your patience is astounding. After reading SO MANY posts where people look for advice and then don't follow it, (even lie about following it), I know I would either give up or be a sarcastic SOB. Kudos, forum folk!!!

Yes, I know borates are not a solution to algae. I am looking for water comfort. My grumpy husband, after swimming 3 times this year, complains about his hair and skin after being in the pool. Happy husband = happy life???? Ha!!! I will use the "slow" plan for adding borates -just in case. BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

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Wow!

Something else to consider: most of the chemicals that form in chlorinated pools, which cause undesired on skin, hair, or eyes are NOT broken down by 'shocking' but ARE broken down by chlorine + solar UV.

Opening your cover on sunny days will probably have MORE effect on the water quality, than the borates will. Of course, the borates won't hurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

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Yes, I know borates are not a solution to algae. I am looking for water comfort. My grumpy husband, after swimming 3 times this year, complains about his hair and skin after being in the pool. Happy husband = happy life???? Ha!!! I will use the "slow" plan for adding borates -just in case. BTW, our Menard's has 31.45% MA at $1.99/gal.

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I don't think the borates are going to change his experience with hair and skin. It might, but I wouldn't count on it. Let us know.

Skin oils get washed off even soaking in pure water. So he could complain just being in any body of water for too long. Does he complain about the feeling after being in a bathtub for as long as he would be in a pool?

The other factor would be the active chlorine level. When previously using bromine, it is stronger than chlorine with CYA so that could have been an issue. With chlorine, so long as CYA is present, the active chlorine level is lower than that in tap water (if it's chlorinated -- not chloraminated).

My wife is in our pool every day for around an hour for therapy exercises and she just showers after she swims and uses three shampoos with respect to swimming/chlorine. The first one is "Ultra Swim Chlorine Removal Shampoo, Moisturizing Formula" which she uses every day. This is the primary shampoo that has reducing agents to remove the chlorine bound to organics in hair. The second is "Aquia Swimmers' Shampoo and Conditioner by Barracuda" which she uses most days but not necessarily every day (it has conditioner so you use it when you would want to condition your hair and not just shampoo it). The third is very strong and powerful so is only used once a week and is "Paul Mitchell clarifying, Shampoo Three". This latter will strip your hair if you use it too often, but it is the only one that removes a slimy buildup at the nape of the neck at lowest base of hair -- probably an accumulation of suntan lotion.

Again, a big issue is just being in water for a long time. Sure, the chlorine doesn't help, but it's not the only factor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chem geek

Or you could use 72 pounds of boric acid. At DudaDiesel this is $65 for 55 pounds plus $45 for 25 pounds plus shipping for the 55 pounds so $110 plus shipping (or 3 25 pounds would be $135 with free shipping). AAA Chemical has $60 for 50 pounds so $120 for 100 pounds plus shipping. The Chemistry Store has $89.10 for 55 pounds and $27.75 for 15 pounds so that's $117 for 70 pounds plus shipping.

Personally, I find using boric acid to be a lot easier since it's just one chemical to add. It didn't used to be as inexpensive as Borax plus acid, but these days it's a lot closer and I think a lot more convenient. Be sure to get granular and not powdered -- the powdered version tends to sit on top of the pool. The granular still dissolves very quickly and is gone with some light brushing. The effect on pH only drops it from 7.5 to around 7.2 when you add 50 ppm borates (the quantities above).

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I switched to using boric acid last year. Much more convenient and I don't have to deal with handling MA.

Btw, I don't know how much adding borates has to do with this, but I noticed that since lowering my TA to 70-80, my pH settles at 7.5 to 7.6 with the SWCG running and doesn't rise any higher. I didn't have to add any MA all last season nor so far this season.

The borates definitely lower the rate of pH rise because they are a pH buffer. The borates will also help reduce or eliminate scaling in SWCG cells, but that's explained by their pH buffering. They don't change the amount of acid you would need to add over time. The lower TA is what fixes that so the combination basically stabilizes your pH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chem geek

The borates definitely lower the rate of pH rise because they are a pH buffer. The borates will also help reduce or eliminate scaling in SWCG cells, but that's explained by their pH buffering. They don't change the amount of acid you would need to add over time. The lower TA is what fixes that so the combination basically stabilizes your pH.

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Thanks for the explanation.

Its been nice not having to mess with adding MA. Of course it was following advice on this forum that lead to finding my pool's sweet spot. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chem geek

I don't think the borates are going to change his experience with hair and skin. It might, but I wouldn't count on it. Let us know.

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The hubby loved it when I added optimizer to our former water and is convinced borates will be the answer now. I don't plan on telling him what you said about borates probably not making a difference and just see what his reaction is when he next goes in. I will let you know what he says!

And to you also, JimK, I wish now that I hadn't stocked up on MA before reading Richard's and your posts about granular boric acid. (At $1.99/G, it was hard not to... my Menard's now raised their price now to $3.57 -still a deal). I found the process of adding borax and MA to be the pits. I would have loved to avoid that!

Btw, I only added 18 boxes of borax before running out. (I wiped out the shelves at several stores). I tested with the Lamotte strips and it seems to read between 50 and 80. I'm not sure why since I didn't add all the borax called for. I will keep an eye on it and see if my reading changes for any reason. I thought I was done reading test strips. Ugh!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Something else to consider: most of the chemicals that form in chlorinated pools, which cause undesired (effects) on skin, hair, or eyes are NOT broken down by 'shocking' but ARE broken down by chlorine + solar UV.

Opening your cover on sunny days will probably have MORE effect on the water quality, than the borates will. Of course, the borates won't hurt.

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I was keeping the auto-cover closed a ton trying to warm up the water. If it ever gets sunny, I will open it up. Thanks for the info; I didn't realize that UV radiation had an effect on breaking down bad stuff. Always learning here on the forum!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

Btw, I only added 18 boxes of borax before running out. (I wiped out the shelves at several stores). I tested with the Lamotte strips and it seems to read between 50 and 80. I'm not sure why since I didn't add all the borax called for.

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Most owner-reported pool volumes are high. Liner volumes supplied by builders and liner makers are for the OVERFLOW volume, not the actual in-pool water.

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Good point. I thought about that too....

When I originally figured my volume I used: 20x40 rectangle with an average 5' 8" (5.66') depth (3.2" shallow, 8.3" deep) to get around 33K.

Then, when we filled this year, I had 4 truck loads of water brought in. One truck supposedly held 5.9K, the other 5.8K. That's almost 24K total. Then I added over a foot with my hose which I calculate added another ~6,000+G. (20x40x1=800ft3=5,948G=~6K) 24K+6K=30K That put me at a revised 30K figure.

Do you think the corner bump-outs (see avatar) can account for that big of a difference? Am I doing something else incorrectly?

Inset corners -- 3' 90 deg radius x 4 => 3^2 * 3.14 * 3.2 * 7.46 = 700 gallon deduct
Steps: 1/2(4' inset * 2.8 deep) * 6 wide * 7.46 = 250 gallon add

Shallow part of pool: 20 * 40 * 3.2 * 7.46 = 19,098 gallons add
Deep part of pool: 20 * 20 * [(8.3 - 3.2)/2] * 7.46 = 7,610 gallons
[Probably should be [(8.3 - 3.2)/3] -- but it depends on the shape of the slope and hopper ]

19098 + 7610 + 250 - 700 = 26,258 total

Thanks for the calculations! My kid, a physics major, promises to get an accurate measure of the deep end as soon as he has time. Kids.

PoolGeek: Guess what??? My husband swam for the first time last night after the addition of borates and he says his hair and skin are MUCH better! His hair (what's left of it... tee-hee) was soft, not sticky. His skin, not overly dry or sticky. He said there is a definite difference! He said he loves the "feel" of the water now. Hmmmm.

I am wondering, though, even with a pool of 26K, why it only took 18 boxes of Borax to get my borates over 50 (it still looks to me to be closer to 80). The "recipe" in http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...stant-to-Algae calls for 10 boxes per 10K. Is there any other test you can run for borates that is more accurate and not cost prohibitive? I'm really puzzled.

1. It looks like I may have an error there; I'm going to have to check because 2 info sources, aren't in agreement.

2. BUT, how were you testing? If it was the AquaChek . . . they are pretty much unreadable. Test some tap water with known borates (0.0) and see what you get.

It's 7-3/4 boxes (76 ounces weight each) of 20 Mule Team Borax per 10,000 gallons for 50 ppm Borates. To balance the pH, this requires 282 fluid ounces (35-1/4 cups or 2.2 gallons) of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid). You usually alternate adding back and forth so that you don't have the pH swing too wildly.

I'm glad the feel of the Borates are working out. I think the main effect is a reduction of surface tension and/or a surfactant effect and that may make the hair not stick together as much and the skin feel a little more silky, but quite frankly the effects aren't noticed by everyone and I'm suspicious that some of it isn't just the placebo effect.

PoolDoc: I bought the borate LaMotte test strips as recommended. May I test borates with distilled water instead of tap? Our tap is softened well water....

ChemGeek: Your borax/volume ratios agree better with my results although it appears I am testing higher than 50. Maybe Ben can use your ratios to compare with his other "info sources". The placebo effect works for me if it makes my husband happy with my new water recipe: pool forum vs. pool store! But he is ADAMANT about the improvement since adding borax. I can't speak to it; 75 degrees is way to cold for me. I read that you use borates, Richard. Have you gone swimming in water without borates to see if YOU notice a difference? Just a thought.

I've noticed the shimmering effect and a lowering of surface tension with the water meniscus being more flat, but I haven't noticed effects on the skin or hair nor has my wife, but she does water therapy exercise in the pool every day for about an hour so she's in there a lot. She didn't make any comments when I boosted up the borates this year after it dropping by dilution from the winter rains. Everyone's different though.

Hello!

While I am waiting (and waiting) for my CYA to reach 30, I have been thinking. p.s. I am adding dichlor every few days and keeping FC between 2.5 and 3.5, CC=0. And, yes, Ben, I am keeping the pool open for several hours a day, but it's hardly being used because IT'S SO COLD!

Anyway, a month or so ago I took a pool sample to Leslie's to get some metals tested and they told me my phosphates were high. I haven't worried about it as everything I had read said as long as you don't have any algae blooms not to be overly concerned. However, I have been following the "ozinator experience" which led me to: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...+my+phosphates ...and that's what got me thinking.

I have enlarged the views on my profile and avatar pictures and emailed Ben larger images of them. I am hoping that you will be able to see the extent of my "greenery" around the pool. There's usually more plants and flowers but we had a killing-winter and I lost a bunch of plants. I do not use plant food/fertilizer but I have a LOT of mulch around the pool.

Hopefully you experts will be able to see the pictures and can offer advice as to whether phosphates may be an increasing problem in the future and need to be dealt with. So far, thanks to you all, everything seems to be perfect except for the weather and resulting low pool usage.

Thanks!

Randy

Hey.

I have been "patiently" waiting until it looked like things had settled down after the July 4th rush and it looks like they have.

Here's my news: My CYA finally hit around 42 (my son and I are familiar with logarithmic scales so it's our best guess). I have been using LC to sanitize. My pH is incredibly stable (thanks for the TA adjustment, Ben!). I check FC, CC, and pH daily and I seem to lose 1.0-1.5 ppm FC each day. I'm not exact with my LC dosages as I am trying to learn how to judge quantities myself and NOT use a calculator. :-) Twice I have had CC between 0.1 and 0.5 but that was after little kids were in the pool....

Here are my numbers:
FC: aim for 4.2 (10% of CYA)
CC: 0
pH: 7.4
TA: 80
CYA: 42 (>40)
CH: 60
Borate: 60 .... I THINK it's 60 but I can't read those LaMotte strips very well
Metals: 0 (according to bucket test) I have only added rain water so far

So.... Is there anything else I should be doing with my new water? I still have concerns about Leslie's telling me I had >1000ppb phosphates. If you think I am saavy enough, I will be happy to be an additional test case for the phosphate project. I know the axiom is "if it ain't broke..." but it seems like there's a good argument for preventative medicine too.

Oh, and my pool is really 26K, not 30K, but I can't change my signature.

Products on hand: plenty of 12.5% LC, 10.5 lbs 68% cal-hypo, 3.25Q 60% polyquat, 2 bx borax, 2.5G MA

I'll let Ben tell you if he wants you to do something with his phosphate project. All of your numbers look pretty good.

Regarding your signature, if you click on the link in my signature, you'll be able to edit it to show the correct volume.

Thanks especially for taking a look at my numbers, Watermom! I tried to use YOUR signature also, and it still won't let me edit. I get the error message:
Your signature contains too many lines and must be shortened. You may only have up to 3 line(s). Long text may have been implicitly wrapped, causing it to be counted as multiple lines.

Well, shorten it a bit. It would be better if it was shorter anyways --- less to read. When we glance at signatures, it helps if it is concise and only the most necessary info in there.

OR, are you saying you can't do any editing at all --- not even to delete part of it?

It looks like everything is OK. Unless you want to pursue using a PO4 remover now, I don't see a reason to do so.

But . . . it looks like I'm going to be putting together a 'winterizing kit' containing PO4 remover + a clarifier, with the intention of selling it to up to 100 in-ground pool owners who want to avoid spring-time slime. I hope to make an announcement about this by mid-August.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

It looks like everything is OK. Unless you want to pursue using a PO4 remover now, I don't see a reason to do so.

But . . . it looks like I'm going to be putting together a 'winterizing kit' containing PO4 remover + a clarifier, with the intention of selling it to up to 100 in-ground pool owners who want to avoid spring-time slime. I hope to make an announcement about this by mid-August.

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Interesting.....up until last winter I used a kit that contained a PO4 remover (it's designed for pools with mesh winter covers). Last winter I didn't use the PO4 remover based on what I'd been reading here about phosphates not being an issue when when properly chlorinated. Maybe I'll go back to using a PO4 remover at winter closing?

Again, using a PO4 remover ONLY has value if you take the PO4 level down to a measured 125 ppb (0.125 ppm) level OR LESS. Simply lowering the PO4 from 2,000 ppb to 500 ppb is probably useless. Also low PO4 levels only make it EASIER to kill resistant algae; low PO4 does not kill algae by itself.

If you have been successfully maintaining a clear pool on opening without messing with a PO4 remover, using one probably serves no purpose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Again, using a PO4 remover ONLY has value if you take the PO4 level down to a measured 125 ppb (0.125 ppm) level OR LESS. Simply lowering the PO4 from 2,000 ppb to 500 ppb is probably useless. Also low PO4 levels only make it EASIER to kill resistant algae; low PO4 does not kill algae by itself.

If you have been successfully maintaining a clear pool on opening without messing with a PO4 remover, using one probably serves no purpose.

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Thanks for the clarification. :)

Hey all! Thanks again SO MUCH for all the help you have given me. The pool has been so easy to maintain this year!

I have a question for you. So far this summer I have been able to use rain to fill but now I need to use my well water. It does contain iron and some kind of iron-bacteria that is best observed as a gelatinous, light-orange growth in our toilet tanks.

I usually attach my hose to an inside spigot which has softened water and attach a Hydopure MetalTrap filter to the end of the hose. The softened water doesn't last the whole fill and if time is not an issue, I will add a half hour per day. Otherwise I just go for it.

I am thinking of adding the well water and then switching my sanitizer from bleach to cal-hypo added to my skimmer in the hopes that the iron will catch on the calcium left on the filter. I currently am metal-free.

What do you think?